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bobhatersfriend



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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:59 am



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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:44 pm

I guess it all depends on the country you live in. Some had more troubles with the Soviets, others with Nazis... Our philosophy teacher (who I think is old enough to remember the war) also said that when the Nazis came it was all fine but when the Soviets came a wave of rapings followed.

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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:38 pm

However Estonian Jews could disagree with your opinion.
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:40 pm

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was only talking about one thing- raping of pretty Estonian farmgirls...

And anyway, while the Nazis killed several thousand Jews here (tho as I understand from the map here, it was only 936 Jews), the Soviets killed hundred times more.

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Punky Bambi

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:28 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

When Germans came to Russian villages they would usually gather all people together in a shed and burn it down because they "didn't accept" russians as ayans at all. They never used strong russian language and were polite in general. It tells us about their high cultural level, which of course cannot be compared with russian peasants' rude behaviour who had the nerve to dislike such treatment and boldly resist and take vengeance on their high-bred conquerors.

I was talking about how it was in Lithuania. I know Germans were cruel with Russians. But in Lithuania Russians did much more harm.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:50 pm

Quote :
I was talking about how it was in Lithuania. I know Germans were cruel with Russians. But in Lithuania Russians did much more harm.

Do you mean in Lithuania Russians did more harm than Germans did in Russia? And how is it much more, how do you difine?
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Punky Bambi

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:21 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

Do you mean in Lithuania Russians did more harm than Germans did in Russia? And how is it much more, how do you difine?

No, i mean that Russians did much more harm in Lithuania than Germans did in Lithuania. Communist killed about half a million Lithuanians.
Also I found that 1917-1947 in Soviet Union were killed 83 million people (Stalin killed about 60million) while Nazi killed about 23 million at all.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:45 pm

Hypno wrote:
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was only talking about one thing- raping of pretty Estonian farmgirls...

What can I say many things like that happend in Poland during "liberation"(44-45) and mostly in Germany. My babushka spent few years in Siberia and one commie/soldier beat her becouse she said to him that Poland exist and will be exist. Im happy she was right. And i am very sorry to nation who killed many, many own citizens. Let's hope it won't happen in future.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:23 pm

Quote :
No, i mean that Russians did much more harm in Lithuania than Germans did in Lithuania.

Lithunia and Germany were sort of allies. I mean the territory was occupied by germans and lots of Lithuanians were on germany's side, so it's no surprise that soviet soldiers treated them like enemies. I'm not justifying their actions but that was a war... I have already wrote about it here...

Quote :
My babushka spent few years in Siberia and one commie/soldier beat her becouse she said to him that Poland exist and will be exist.

My grand-grandmother's parents were deported from Poland to the Perm area where I live. I don't know details, and that's all I know actually and it was before the WW2... So I might have some Polish blood in my veins Smile)

My other grandmother was sent to the north of Perm area in the 30s and they were left in a small village in the forest. Have no idea how they managed to survive...

Communists did much harm to Russia as well. It can't be denied.
But I just don't understand this maxim: "Russians did more harm", or "Germans did more harm"... Don't you think that math don't work here? If someone killed 20 mln people and the other killed 10 million, it doesn't lessen the crime IMHO, because it's human lives - not destroyd buildings or shot planes...


P.S. doesn't the first paragraph contradict the last one a bit? I conflict with myself today Smile
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:54 pm

After 1989-91 Soviets suddently disapeared what happend to them?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:10 pm

towito wrote:
After 1989-91 Soviets suddently disapeared what happend to them?

I didn't understand your question. What do you mean what happened to them? everybody knows what happened to them...
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:38 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
towito wrote:
After 1989-91 Soviets suddently disapeared what happend to them?

I didn't understand your question. What do you mean what happened to them? everybody knows what happened to them...

I was watching interview with some Russian actor, who played in Katyn film. He said that polish people shoud not blame russian people for this mass murder but soviet people. So who are this soviet poeple if they aren;t Russians and Ukrainians and where they have gone?
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:42 pm

We are mixed there is no 100% Pole, German, Rusiian etc.
Genetically we are all brothers and sisters. Smile
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Punky Bambi

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:37 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

Lithunia and Germany were sort of allies. I mean the territory was occupied by germans and lots of Lithuanians were on germany's side, so it's no surprise that soviet soldiers treated them like enemies. I'm not justifying their actions but that was a war... I have already wrote about it here...

yeah, a lot of Lithuanians was on Germans side, because Lithuania was scared of Russia. We had suffered a lot from Russia.

NowhereMan wrote:
Communists did much harm to Russia as well. It can't be denied.
But I just don't understand this maxim: "Russians did more harm", or "Germans did more harm"... Don't you think that math don't work here? If someone killed 20 mln people and the other killed 10 million, it doesn't lessen the crime IMHO, because it's human lives - not destroyd buildings or shot planes...

I'm very likely to agree with this... But, oh well, we need to compare them somehow. Maybe that's not very good way, yeah.
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lemmik

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:18 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
If someone killed 20 mln people and the other killed 10 million, it doesn't lessen the crime IMHO, because it's human lives - not destroyd buildings or shot planes...

I agree, it's sad that we still have to speek and argue over WW2. This war has ended long time ago.


We are a part of generation, who have spoken to people who has been there and seen the war and what happened after that. My grandmother was sent to Siberia, because her family hired farmhand. My grandfather was sent to forced-labor camp and after that to Siberia, because he helped bushwhackers. Train ride was free cheers , but only one way. My fathers parents are from Russia and have never seen Siberia, to bad for them lol!

I hope my children don't have to discuss over such topics. The have to know about holocaust, gulags, mass deportation and other war crimes, but they don't need to argue who was bad and who was worst.
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Punky Bambi

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:55 pm

lemmik wrote:


I agree, it's sad that we still have to speek and argue over WW2. This war has ended long time ago.

(...)

I hope my children don't have to discuss over such topics. The have to know about holocaust, gulags, mass deportation and other war crimes, but they don't need to argue who was bad and who was worst.

I think we have to discuss such things, because it's the only way to avoid something like that or even worse in the future. Only knowing that there were such things like Holocaust means nothing, because you simply can't imagine how horrible it was.
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matrixx



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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:23 am

Punky Bambi wrote:
I think we have to discuss such things, because it's the only way to avoid something like that or even worse in the future. Only knowing that there were such things like Holocaust means nothing, because you simply can't imagine how horrible it was.

And as with a lot of facts connected to the WW2 even that is debatable:
http://forum.codoh.info/index.php. If someone cares to take a look.
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Merlikas

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:00 am

I'm tired of that topic. It's practically the question: What was worse - killing people or killing people?
And then we can discuss what was worse. Because they killed differently and different people and they had have a different kind of brainwash and so on.
Come on. It's ridiculous!
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:59 pm

[quote="towito"][quote="NowhereMan"]
towito wrote:
After 1989-91 Soviets suddently disapeared what happend to them?
I was watching interview with some Russian actor, who played in Katyn film. He said that polish people shoud not blame russian people for this mass murder but soviet people. So who are this soviet poeple if they aren;t Russians and Ukrainians and where they have gone?

Soviet people are those who lived in the Soviet Union, I suppose Smile
I think that the term "soviet" today doesn't mean ethnicity (it never did actually) or citizenship; it defines those who lived in the period of SU in the SU. That's it. Those who commited the mass murder were soviet and Iguess most of them are dead by now. You can blame russians living today if you like but just know that you blame the wrong people.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:56 am

[quote="NowhereMan]

Soviet people are those who lived in the Soviet Union, I suppose Smile
I think that the term "soviet" today doesn't mean ethnicity (it never did actually) or citizenship; it defines those who lived in the period of SU in the SU. That's it. Those who commited the mass murder were soviet and Iguess most of them are dead by now. You can blame russians living today if you like but just know that you blame the wrong people.[/quote]

So why Russians bother with soviet soldiers statues? Smile
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:57 am

towito wrote:
[quote="NowhereMan]

Soviet people are those who lived in the Soviet Union, I suppose Smile
I think that the term "soviet" today doesn't mean ethnicity (it never did actually) or citizenship; it defines those who lived in the period of SU in the SU. That's it. Those who commited the mass murder were soviet and Iguess most of them are dead by now. You can blame russians living today if you like but just know that you blame the wrong people.

So why some of Russians bother with soviet soldiers statues? Smile
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:20 pm

towito wrote:
towito wrote:
[quote="NowhereMan]

Soviet people are those who lived in the Soviet Union, I suppose Smile
I think that the term "soviet" today doesn't mean ethnicity (it never did actually) or citizenship; it defines those who lived in the period of SU in the SU. That's it. Those who commited the mass murder were soviet and Iguess most of them are dead by now. You can blame russians living today if you like but just know that you blame the wrong people.

So why some of Russians bother with soviet soldiers statues? Smile

Oh yes man, I got it! I see where you're getting at. You gonna say why we, russians, (btw, see the last page of People Are Same Everywhere :: Political ::Russia:: Russia. What is It? topic to learn about the term "Russian") gladly accept and are proud of all the achievments of the SU, but we don't want to take any responsibility for the "bad things", eh?

Congratulations, my friend! I have no answer to this question. And what did you expect? that I would eagerly start to protect and justify my fellow countrymen?

The key word in your question is SOME Russians. Maybe we should ask those particular russians who are proud of our common victory but don't we wish to be blamed for the concrete crime. I know such people, and I do understand them very well. However, I am determined that it is not only a russian thing - I would rather call it a human nature. I am kind of proud to live in the country of Pushkin and Tolstoy, but don't want be ashamed of Stalin or Putin...
Are you satisfied with this answer? Wink

P.S Russian Federation accepted and repayed all the debts of the Soviet Union.
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lemmik

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:32 pm

-


Last edited by on Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:35 pm

NowhereMan wrote:


Oh yes man, I got it! I see where you're getting at. You gonna say why we, russians, (btw, see the last page of People Are Same Everywhere :: Political ::Russia:: Russia. What is It? topic to learn about the term "Russian") gladly accept and are proud of all the achievments of the SU, but we don't want to take any responsibility for the "bad things", eh?

Congratulations, my friend! I have no answer to this question. And what did you expect? that I would eagerly start to protect and justify my fellow countrymen?

The key word in your question is SOME Russians. Maybe we should ask those particular russians who are proud of our common victory but don't we wish to be blamed for the concrete crime. I know such people, and I do understand them very well. However, I am determined that it is not only a russian thing - I would rather call it a human nature. I am kind of proud to live in the country of Pushkin and Tolstoy, but don't want be ashamed of Stalin or Putin...
Are you satisfied with this answer? Wink

P.S Russian Federation accepted and repayed all the debts of the Soviet Union.

You exactly pointed out what i was thinking Smile
Im not fan of pasing sins on next generation. And Im not blaiming new generation for old times, i just hope that they will be helpful in researching the truth. Documentcs about in this case Katyń tragedy were given by russian or ukkrainian side. It was realy big sign of good will.
Katyn lives in Polisch people memory only becouse it was forbidden to talk about it for fifty years becouse not everything is clear here and becouse russian goverment can't say - "It was mass murder, caused by cruel idelogy" That;s 0all i think most people here would be satisfied here with it and this case would be closed.
As You saw i put word - some in the sentence. I did it becouse many Russians sufferd from system like your ancestors who were deported. They know that system was broken. Unfortunately some people still are proud but they want to remember only about good things.
Im ashamed about about 1968 and Czechoslovakia , It was PRL not RP like today but i know what Poles did and im ashamed still. I don't want any declaration from You becouse as I said I don't b;ame You. About Putin - it is Your President and You have right to defend him if You want.I don like Katchynki;s but when German media attacked them I was angry. Personaly i think Putin is not so bad as this guy in North Corea who is more, more dangerous. He invited inspectors only becouse he run out of wine.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: WW2   Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:02 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

P.S Russian Federation accepted and repayed all the debts of the Soviet Union.

To the west maybe...
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