Why Estonia relocated monument

logic90545 wrote:

Whether there were they invaders (occupaters) of independent Estonia? NO. Because Estonians had not time to create the independent state. That state that Estonians tried to create, was not independent, it has not existed MINUTES without Germany.

Actually that goverment lasted about 3 days - on these 3 days our national flag was up and government was active - trying to organize some resistance. When Soviet troops entered Tallinn the germans had left about 2 days ago - there was no fighting around Tallinn. Still - our national units continued to fight with the germans that were retreating. At least there was some chance to resist soviets. The main hope was that the Allies will win the war in the West before Soviet Union can overrun germas lines.

About that occupation thing. Yes - had the soviets left after the war, they would be the liberators. But they did no such thing - what began was systematic elimination of Estonian intellectuals and importing of soviets in order to russify Estonia.

logic90545 wrote:

5. Tombs were away from a stop. It is the fact. The Question of principle here in the one who has placed a stop to a monument. It has appeared there rather recently (20 years ago mb).

The trolley stop has been there as long as there are trolley's in Tallinn. Can't say the exact date now, but can look it up.

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Otherwise, stay of parts of NATO in territory of Estonia today, can be named occupation also.

You still believe Russian-Soviet propaganda? . Estonians supported joining with NATO, they didn't support joining with Soviet Union. NATO hasn't killed 17% of our nation . They HELP us, Soviets KILLED us. Can you see these little differences?

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The MOST PART of ESTONIANS (53%) was AGAINST!!!

About quater of them were Russians. And some Estonians just scared the reaction of Russia.

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Whether there were they invaders (occupaters) of independent Estonia? NO. Because Estonians had not time to create the independent state. That state that Estonians tried to create, was not independent, it has not existed MINUTES without Germany.

? hm. Actually for me it's clear: 1918 we had independent country, then came Soviet troops and made fake-elections to show that Estonian joining with USSR is legal. But because they lied it was occupating. There wasn't no battle- Russians just marched into our little country and sayed it's now their own. Then came mass-deportings and killings. And "liberating" from nazi-german was just replacing one criminal regime with other and nothing less.

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You can name it demonstration, I prefer the term provocation.

And what is the USSR flag and burning Estonian flag?

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5. Tombs were away from a stop. It is the fact.

But still, hundred people every day screaming on the tombs, because they think that occupation was actually liberation...

This is your country and you can do whatever you want. You can relocate the whole damn city of Tallinn if you wish - I don't care I'm so sick of this silly argument!!

You'd better help me to learn a few words in estonian. How the hell do you say these:
• Good day (hi, hello…), good morning and goodnight
• Thank you
• Good-bye (see you, bye…)
• Please
• Welcome

And any other words you wish…

Thank you

3 days of liberty?

"Estonian flag one hung on " Long Herman " not. Near to it much greater developed on the size a German flag with a swastika. And released Tallinn the Soviet soldiers have brought down from a tower both banner - both a flag of nazis, and a flag of their helpers."

Two flags on one stick is a historycal fact guys.

Anyway. The state is considered independent only after a minimum other two states have recognized its independence.

German evacuation is not complete.

"By 14.00 o'clock on September, 22nd, 1944 Tallinn has been cleared of the rests of armies of the opponent. Armies of the Soviet Army have taken here as trophies of 25 planes, 186 artillery units, 230 motor vehicles and a lot of other property which invaders had not time to take away or destroy. In harbour 15 transports of the opponent with militarians captured have been grasped and civilians which fascist command intended to move to Germany."

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Yes - had the soviets left after the war, they would be the liberators

They liberate own (soviet) territory, why they must go away from OWN territory?

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The trolley stop has been there as long as there are trolley's in Tallinn. Can't say the exact date now, but can look it up.

Look it pls. I want to know it. But anyway craves was earler.

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Estonians supported joining with NATO

In the international attitudes system binary. There is a contract or not. NATO in Estonia on the basis of the contract. Armies of the USSR in Estonia were too on contracts.

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But because they lied it was occupating.

The term occupation concerns to war. Violent political connection refers to as annexation. If took place occupation under the international laws the invader is obliged to indemnify for occupation. For this reason the Estonian politicians try to present annexation by occupation.

Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining). Violent political connection of the country or its part to other country.

For example: "Kuwait

After being allied with Iraq during the Iran – Iraq War (largely due to desiring Iraqi protection from Islamic Iran), Kuwait was invaded and annexed by Iraq (under Saddam Hussein) in August 1990. Hussein's primary justifications included a charge that Kuwaiti territory was in fact an Iraqi province, and that annexation was retaliation for "economic warfare" Kuwait had waged through slant drilling into Iraq's oil supplies. The monarchy was deposed after annexation, and an Iraqi governor installed."

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About quater of them were Russians.

Estonians only.

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And what is the USSR flag and burning Estonian flag?

Where u see burning or any attack on estonian flag on the video at May, 9th 2006? Watch the video pls.

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You still believe Russian-Soviet propaganda?

No, I still to believe in the facts. If someone will prove to me documentary, that I am not right, I shall change the opinion. But you should understand to change opinion someone, your proofs should be more powerful, than those that the opponent has resulted.

Estonia was occupied because of the crisis developing in 1939 in Europe limited communication with the western world, in cover of that Soviets offered so called Base contract to Estonia and threated with war if it is not signed, while Estonian government was thinking, Soviet airplanes were already flying over Estonia capital (This all is FACT) <---this is act of war!!!!

This also shows that USSR is also in blame for ww2. They knew the war is coming, actually everyone knew, and USSR used all the prewar mess to expand their boarders.

During 1939-1940 USSR shot (during peace time in these territories) boats and planes down. Many people died on these boats and planes they all were civilians who were afraid of USSR and thought they are better of in Finland and some were even Finnish. <-- another act of war!!!!!

And about that 53% supporting the statue isn't correct because they ask only few hundred people or maybe thousand, you can't decide by these surveys.

Ok thats about it, this thing is so annoying already. Let this bronze soldier finally rest in peace.

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You'd better help me to learn a few words in estonian. How the hell do you say these:

Good day (hi, hello…) - Tere
good morning - Tere hommikust
goodnight - Head õhtut, Head ööd
Thank you - Aitäh
Good-bye - Head aega
See you - Nägemist
Bye - Hüvasti
Please - Palun
Welcome - Tere tulemast
Estonia - Eesti
Capitol - Pealinn
Nature - Loodus
Money - Raha
Me - Mina
You (singular) - Sina
You (plural; also conventionality form for singular, used usually whrn you don't know that person) - Teie
We - Meie
I - Mina
My - Minu
It - See
Flag - Lipp
One - Üks
Two - Kaks
Three - Kolm
Four - Neli
Five - Viis
Six - Kuus
Seven -Seitse
Eight - Kaheksa
Nine - Üheksa
Ten - Kümme
Eleven - Üksteist
Twelve - Kaksteist
13 - Kolmteist
14 - Neliteist
...
20 - Kakskümmend
21 - Kakskümmend üks
22 - Kakskümmend kaks
...
30 - Kolmkümmend
40 - Nelikümmend
50 - Viiskümmend
60 - Kuuskümmend
70 - Seitsekümmend
80 - Kaheksakümmend
90 - Üheksakümmend
100 - Sada
200- Kakssada
...
1000 - Tuhat

logic90545 wrote:

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Yes - had the soviets left after the war, they would be the liberators

They liberate own (soviet) territory, why they must go away from OWN territory?

Becouse Estonia was occupied in June 1939 as a consequence of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Now, if I'm correct, basically not one of the western states recognized Estonia as a part of the USSR (and had not done it in 1939) and the Estonian intellectuals who managed to escape the occupation still acted as a government of Estonia.

When there is a speech about occupation of one state (Estonia) by other (USSR) the condition of war or operations between these STATES is meant. Infringement of air border still is not FIGHT. Otherwise then flights of the American military planes-scouts today above Moscow, Iran, China, Kuba should be named as "act of war" too.

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During 1939-1940 USSR shot (during peace time in these territories) boats and planes down. Many people died on these boats and planes they all were civilians who were afraid of USSR and thought they are better of in Finland and some were even Finnish.

You have in view of during war with Finland. This is not a act of war between STATES of estonia & USSR, i repeat STATES STATES STATES STATES STATES STAAAAAATEEEEES. Didn't undestand differents?
When the Ukrainian militarians have brought down during doctrines civil plane and hundreds people were lost, this fact then also should be named war between Israel and Ukraine?

logic90545 wrote:

They liberate own (soviet) territory, why they must go away from OWN territory?

That's playing with words. The outcome is still the same - Estonia remained under control of Soviet Union.

You can read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Baltic_Republics.

Soviet Union (and now Russia) just denies the fact that they first occupied Baltic states in 1939. The government that asked Estonia to be incorporated to Soviet Union was merely a puppet government backed by the Soviet military forces in Estonia. Finns did the right thing and refused the bases contract - and kept their independance - that is one thing many estonians never forgive to their rulers in 1939, to let the soviet troops set up bases. Sure - Estonia would've been too small to really stand against soviet armies, but still - in 1944 Estonian troops held up Soviet advance in Blue Mountains for months, only because german lines in south were overrun, the defenders had to retreat.

About the trolleys. First trolley line was set up in 1965. and as far as I know the "Tõnismäe" stop has been there starting from about the same time - almost all trolley lines pass through that stop.

This voting about the Bronze Soldier that you all quote - that was done only in Tallinn and was one of many. There were many TV programs where people could call and give vote pro or contra moving. There the usual percent was 70% pro and 30% contra.

logic90545 wrote:

When there is a speech about occupation of one state (Estonia) by other (USSR) the condition of war or operations between these STATES is meant. Infringement of air border still is not FIGHT. Otherwise then flights of the American military planes-scouts today above Moscow, Iran, China, Kuba should be named as "act of war" too.

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During 1939-1940 USSR shot (during peace time in these territories) boats and planes down. Many people died on these boats and planes they all were civilians who were afraid of USSR and thought they are better of in Finland and some were even Finnish.

You have in view of during war with Finland. This is not a act of war between STATES of estonia & USSR, i repeat STATES STATES STATES STATES STATES STAAAAAATEEEEES. Didn't undestand differents?
When the Ukrainian militarians have brought down during doctrines civil plane and hundreds people were lost, this fact then also should be named war between Israel and Ukraine?

Get facts right. USSR incorporated Estonia into Soviet Union in 1940, so if they shot any civilians before that IT IS ACT OF WAR.
The planes over Tallinn had crossed the border with out the asking if they are allowed. These planes weren't for scouting these were BOMBERS. ACT OF WAR.
I forgot before to mention the warships blocking already from the sea. This also is ACT OF WAR.
Threatening with war. Is AGGRESSION TOWARDS OTHER COUNTRY.

And about USA: Did I somewhere said that what USA is doing is right? Well in some places they have the right to use aggression towards other (like Afghanistan not Iraq). And todays scout planes aren't ACT of WAR because they fly over the range of radars, and well over the airspace of any country. Other wise we could say that satellites in space are act of war (what they are not).

Wikipedia has one huge lack. Any interested person can edit it. I can go and change this clause as I shall want. As a result there one clause contradicts another.

"just denies the fact"

Funny "just". And you know that the first president of Estonia have allowed a command to group of historians to prove the fact of occupation of Estonia by the Soviet Russia. As occupation, in the international legal sense of this term, was not, the Estonian historians have ruined the task. Then by Lennart Mary it was furious, stamped legs, beat a fist on a table and swore indecent words. It is a historic fact.

Abuot playing with words. Think about this:

Let's assume tomorrow Russia has attacked Estonia and has grasped before arrival of NATO all its continental part. Has then come NATO and has expelled Russian. The Estonian and NATO armies are here liberators or invaders (occupants) of continental territory of Estonia?

Using your logic, it is necessary to consider as their invaders. Because independence of Estonia has been signed not under the initiative of Russia, and under pressure of the West (Estonia supported the USA it is the fact). And armies have returned all on a place. Correctly I speak?


"70% pro and 30% contra"

I do not know how interrogations of the population were spent. But I can, as the witness of events, precisely to tell. That on the area near library on April, 26th there were many Estonians. That they have come to crowd of the enraged Russian already in itself a feat. Therefore I think, that 50/50 more correct parameter. Thanks for support estonians!

P.S. I was on the area from 17:30 till 21:15. Can to me it is necessary to write that there was valid. Around of this event now it is so much lie. People all further and further leave from a reality, both Russian and Estonians.

logic90545 wrote:

Wikipedia has one huge lack. Any interested person can edit it. I can go and change this clause as I shall want. As a result there one clause contradicts another.

[---]

Let's assume tomorrow Russia has attacked Estonia and has grasped before arrival of NATO all its continental part. Has then come NATO and has expelled Russian. The Estonian and NATO armies are here liberators or invaders (occupants) of continental territory of Estonia?

All mayor articles are under watch all the time and every false change done there is fixed really quick. And if there are many false changes to the article in short ammount of time the article can be locked.

And if NATO's soldiers would stay here, kill 20% of Estonians (mostly our smarter part of community), install a puppet government and such, I'd say that it's a invasion/occupation. And as probably no one will recognize the Estonia under Russian rule, it (the re-conquering by NATO) could not be stated as an occupation.

whatever

I speak you that legal terms. Now the American planes of all types fly above territory North Korea, the fleet of the USA detains civil ships of this country. It that, war? The fleet of the USA long time blocked Iraq from the sea. It already was war? The Soviet antiaircraft forces have brought down civil plane of South Korea Near Sahalin in 80th. It was war with South Korea? NO.

"satellites in space are act of war (what they are not)"

In international laws it is precisely stipulated, that is space of the state - the ground, water and air. (not space!!!)

"And todays scout planes aren't ACT of WAR because they fly over the range of radars."

Funny. Estonians too could not bring down Russian bombers in 1939 for technical reasons too. It mean, they aren't "ACT of WAR" by your logic. Correctly I speak?

logic90545 wrote:

Abuot playing with words. Think about this:

Let's assume tomorrow Russia has attacked Estonia and has grasped before arrival of NATO all its continental part. Has then come NATO and has expelled Russian. The Estonian and NATO armies are here liberators or invaders (occupants) of continental territory of Estonia?

Using your logic, it is necessary to consider as their invaders. Because independence of Estonia has been signed not under the initiative of Russia, and under pressure of the West (Estonia supported the USA it is the fact). And armies have returned all on a place. Correctly I speak?

I don't quite understand the example. If Russia would attack and conquer Estonia now - it would be occupation. If after that NATO forces together with remaining Estonian forces would return, push russian back out and reinstate the previous government, they would be liberators.

In 1939 Russia got their bases in Estonia. Red Army marched in and in 1940 this army stage a Coup d'Etat ... replacing current government with a government of their liking. Some days later Soviet Union annexed Estonia. As their troops stayed here, we can say the country was occupied. Occupation - Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. Red Army definitely was hostile towards Estonian army. The fact that no serious conflicts arose, does not change the fact.

Now if talk about the Soviet Republic of Estonia, then you are right. This state was created when SU annexed Estonia. It was never accepted de jure by the western powers. So in 1944 soviet forces liberated SRE, but re-occupied Estonia (actually pushed out the current occupants - germans). That's two different states and two different fates. Current Estonia continues legally the first Estonian Republic (1918 - 1940).

Before to read definitions below, all guys, pls, answer me for a one simple but impotant question:

As you think. If Russian would not kill and did not move Estonians. You would consider input of armies and the this joining to the USSR as occupation?

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I don't quite understand the example.

It because we have too short time interval (1939-1941). If annexation has occured in 1940, and Germans attacked the USSR in territory ESSR in 2228 the example would be clear.

As u said:

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So in 1944 soviet forces liberated SRE

So, u are agree, that they are liberators of SRE, but not liberators of today Estonia. True. But here is principially question, because there was no so-called independent second republic Estonia. Germans and had not time to finish evacuation. And soldiers of red army in 1944 of a machine gun have shot, hanging on one staff, at once two flags - German and Estonian.
How you think, it was the independent state if its flag hung together with German? Besides it was less and hung below German.

Sry, but it was so-called puppet pro-german govrement.

Unfortunately, there are only two independent Estonia republics: 1918-1940 and todays Estonia.


As i see u trust en.wikipedia.org? K, I shall write definitions only therefrom.

Someone posted this Occupation of Baltic states

As i said, wikipedia has one huge lack. Any interested person can edit it. I can go and change this clause as I shall want. As a result there one clause contradicts another.

Let's see, what mean wikipedia if talk about occupation:

Belligerent military occupation occurs when one nation's military occupies all or part of the territory of another nation or recognized belligerent

Unsuccessful definition. That it to understand it is necessary to read what is Belligerency. So, open pls new window, and type it to to the search window and become:

Belligerency is a term used in international law to indicate the status of two or more entities, generally sovereign states, being engaged in a war.

So, looks like, if we talk about occupation, then we talk about war. Right?

Now choose in previsious (occupation) window "Main article: List of military occupations", and u can see in the following list:

Occupation of Baltic Republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania by the Soviet Union, 1939-1940 Marked by number [1].

It means, that term "military occupation" exatly that about talk. Funny, that below u can read following:

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were annexed into USSR in 1940 and after the USSR's re-capture of the region in 1944/45 many other Allies accepted the annexation as de facto if not de jure.

The next row is more funnyest. There talk about Poland:

Under the terms of two decrees by Hitler (October 8 and October 12, 1939), large areas of western Poland were annexed to Germany. Much of the rest of Poland was organized into the Generalgouvernement (General Government) of Poland, under German administration, while eastern Poland was annexed by the Soviet Union. The annexations were not recognized by any other State.

So, let's see what is annexation by wikipedia:
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the legal incorporation of some territory into another geo-political entity (either adjacent or non-contiguous).

LOL

So. Do u still trust wikipedia?

logic90545 wrote:

Unfortunately, there are only two independent Estonia republics: 1918-1940 and todays Estonia.

See - here we have different views. There is only one independant Estonian republic. One that was founded 1918, then occupied in 1940 and finally regained independance in 1991.

As for the legal mumbo-jumbo. While russians may happily accept that the annexation was legal, that is not the case with estonians. Same goes for every East-European country occupied by the Soviet Union after WW2. While the soviets can happily wave flags and yell - "we won and liberated the nations from the nazis", the reality for those "liberated" nations was that one terror-regime was replaced by another, more evil regime. How can they ever call it liberation? That is the main problem actually - not how the exact wording is. The ultimate proof of that is the fact, that germans were hailed as liberators at first in all Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine - in all those countries recently (or not so recently) swallowed by Soviet Union.

So while russians are celebrating the victory over nazis - I, a simple estonian, will light a candle for those, who fought against the communist regime.

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So while russians are celebrating the victory over nazis - I, a simple estonian, will light a candle for those, who fought against the communist regime.

You can do what you want. And I will celebrate the day of victory and light a candle for those who liberated my country from nazis and kicked their ass. I will pray for my (great-)grandfather and others who gave their lives not for Stalin or communism, but for ME and MY country.

NowhereMan wrote:

You can do what you want. And I will celebrate the day of victory and light a candle for those who liberated my country from nazis and kicked their ass. I will pray for my (great-)grandfather and others who gave their lives not for Stalin or communism, but for ME and MY country.

Ofcource, because for you it really is a day for celebration and nothing can take that away. Thing is for most estonians those celebrations bring mixed feelings. That's why the moving of bronze statue was important - there is no constant reminder of occupation in the middle in the city and the russians can freely go to the cemetary to honor their fallen grand(-grand)parents - a good solution for both parties. Just my 2 cents.

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So while russians are celebrating the victory over nazis - I, a simple estonian, will light a candle for those, who fought against the communist regime.

Basic your mistake that soldiers never is at war contra someone. Soldiers always are at war pro someone.

Because the soldier before receiving the weapon someone swears. The soldier carries out that will order to it. If it in the ranks of Germans (Russian) then it has sworn fidelity to Hitler (Stalin), and do what Hitler (Stalin) want.

But many did not understand it. And the some people do not understand it now. Therefore also there were events the city of Novogrudok (Belarus).

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The ultimate proof of that is the fact, that germans were hailed as liberators at first in all Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine - in all those countries recently (or not so recently) swallowed by Soviet Union.

Why Germans name liberators in former republics USSR is already absolutely other history. To tell more correctly, what not in everything, and in where the sympathy to the USA is visible.

For example so was before Lukashenko's arrival in Belarus. In spite of the fact that Germans have killed it for the period of occupation 2/3 of civil population of Belarus. Now in Belarus absolutely other attitude to Germans.

logic90545 wrote:

whatever
Funny. Estonians too could not bring down Russian bombers in 1939 for technical reasons too. It mean, they aren't "ACT of WAR" by your logic. Correctly I speak?

Actually Estonians could have brought down at least few of them but they were afraid what had followed to that, because, biggest army of that time was standing behind the borders ready to cross it, kill and rape the whole land. If I remember correctly it was 500 000 USSR soldiers Estonians had only 15 000. This was act of war.

As I see you didn't get the point. Logic is in this that USA has scouts (as do Russians) all parts of the world but USSR had BOMBERS (or you think bomber means observation plane, no it is weapon to destroy)

"As I see you didn't get the point."

Distinguish only two kinds of infringers of air space. Civil plane or the military plane. So do only because there is no such precise border between planes of special purpose and usual purposes. So for example Soviet plane-scout MIG25, with in other updating can fly almost also highly and speedly, and thus to bear two small nuclear bombs.

Now tell me. When fly USA military planes of all types fly above North Korea today. Do u call it as war?

Now it is possible to speak much, that could be, if Estonia has shown resistance of the USSR. It was important that. Namely that was not neither operations (fights) between the STATES Estonia and the USSR, nor the declared war. You can name it as political power blackmail, but not as war.

I said u more time, why it can't be named as occupation. Now tell me, the term annexation describes incorrectly what has occured to Estonia?

Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining). Violent political connection of the country or its part to other country.

I dind't say there was war I said act of war (and that doesn't mean fighting, it is aggression what can go into war)

USA business in North Korea I would say is aggression. As do Russians (example: their Fighter crashes into Lithuania; Russian plane crossing illegally Estonian borders what was spotted by radars and after trying to lie and not admit the insitent. So please don't bring examples of USA because it is done by Russia, Norway, Sweden, GB, France almost every bigger and richer country.)

Who said the Republic of Estonia ceased to exist after we were occupied?

http://www.president.ee/en/estonia/heads.php:

The Prime Minister of the Republic of Estonia in the Duties of the President

17.06.1940 the Soviet Union occupied the Republic of Estonia. According to Section 46 the Estonian Constitution (Riigi Teataja 03.09.1937 No. 71 Art 590), when the office of the President of the Republic of Estonia is vacant, or the President of the Republic can not perform his duties as in cases as specified by law, the duties of the President were to be performed by the Prime Minister, whereas the duties of the Prime Minister were to be performed by the Deputy Prime Minister. In case both the Prime Minister and his Deputy were incapable of performing the duties of the Prime Minister, they were to be fulfilled by the eldest member of the Government. (Section 52). In 1945, after the death of Jüri Uluots, the eldest member of the Government appointed by Jüri Uluots (with Otto Tief as the Deputy Prime Minister) was August Rei, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who assumed his position after the death of Jüri Uluots. The Prime Minister in the duties of the President assumed office in the same way until 1992.

17.06.1940-09.01.1945 Jüri Uluots
09.01.1945-29.03.1963 August Rei
30.03.1963-23.12.1970 Aleksander Varma (Warma)
23.12.1970-01.03.1990 Tõnis Kint
01.03.1990-06.10.1992 Heinrich Mark

It is the truth. The republic existed, but only on a paper (i mean only de jure).

logic90545 wrote:

It is the truth. The republic existed, but only on a paper (i mean only de jure).

Ofcourse only de jure, becouse Soviet Union had de facto power over us.

logic90545 wrote:

It is the truth. The republic existed, but only on a paper (i mean only de jure).

well if you look at that point.. all countries exist only on a paper...