The role of public school

Quote :

tho also not in the last years of school as by then we already have all our opinions and it'll be harder to change anything

Completely disagree with this opinion. I generally oppose public schools at all because this is toll of governments to manipulate societies. However if I cannot prevent them to exist I expect that their aim is to teach children definitely not rear children, create their views or ideology. As long as they are not adults this is exclusively the role of parents. This is obvious that different parent have different views on school program could be only one. This is why I support private schools where parents are aware in to what kind of lessons their kids attend. Different schools would have different profiles and programs and this is how freedom and plurality would be saved. Public school will be always toll of government propagating the one and the only true. So I have nothing against private schools with for example homosexual propaganda because my children would be sent to school with conservative profile.

Another good idea for education is homeschooling where parents teach their children at home what they want to teach. I think that generally only lack of time or laziness would prevent many parents from doing this. I think that I could do this without problem.

About homeschooling, I think that it's a bad choice as it (unless you hire someone) takes up a lot of the parent's time and I believe that the school is a must-go place to learn social skills.

Hypno wrote:

About homeschooling, I think that it's a bad choice as it (unless you hire someone) takes up a lot of the parent's time and I believe that the school is a must-go place to learn social skills.

But this is free choice of parents, if they decide to go this way then obviously they don't consider this choice to be bad. Homeschooling would not be obligatory for all.

Please explain what you understand by "social skills"?

Talking with other people, socializing, communicating, making friends etc etc... From my (tho pretty small) experience, most homeschooled people turn out kinda weird.

And I don't think that my school has created any views or ideology to me... Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe schools here are not like that. We don't celebrate gay/lesbian pride day (tho we briefly go over the topic in Family ed. class), we don't have religion studies (I think we had a couple of lessons ages ago but I guess they were canceled or something).

And think of creating views by parents this way- if the parents are communists/nazis/anarchists/mormons/whatever, won't they create those views to their child also? And the public school, where there goes people with different views on the world, is kind of a melting pot where you get to know all these different views and by all that information, create your own.

Hypno wrote:

Talking with other people, socializing, communicating, making friends etc etc... From my (tho pretty small) experience, most homeschooled people turn out kinda weird.

I doubt that you met many such people in post-communist Estonia. However homeschooling doesn't means isolation of children in home. They would have all the time to met other children, be members of some clubs, organizations like scouts and etc.

Quote :

And think of creating views by parents this way- if the parents are communists/nazis/anarchists/mormons/whatever, won't they create those views to their child also?

This is too bad if they are wicked, still you cannot be sure that they would be willing to homeschool their children. But those would be very small minority. When government become fascist then problem with public school is widespread targeting all families.

Quote :

And the public school, where there goes people with different views on the world, is kind of a melting pot where you get to know all these different views and by all that information, create your own.

The good example is the EU plan to publish common history book for all Europe, this was already discussed in this board. This is obvious that this is impossible to create such book because every nation has its own perspective of the same historical events. Still for socialist bureaucrats, those who always know better what is better for people (your children in this case) and how to spend your money (for public school in this case) than you, this would be not a problem to establish such book to be obligatory in all schools. So even if somehow your own bureaucrats in Estonia would not dare to do this, those from Brussels would. This is their nature to control everything and earn money on this proceeder.

Another good example is Spanish Bolshevistic government which already installed I think the new lessons of "civic education". Knowing views of Zapatero, Spanish conservatives expect the worst, leftist indoctrination and the war against Catholic mindset of the children created by nobody else but their parents. So the weird individuals are never as much dangerous as weird government.

Remember also about option with private schools.

Don't you have to pay for attentind to private schools in general? I don't think many people could afford that.
I don't feel any ideology beign taught at schools either, ecept religion, if they really wish to teach religion, then not only one Catholic, but other too the largest ones for example.
So the only lessons where You could teach kid's ''the government's'' cause is religion or history, I could hardly put other lessons on the list.

Quote :

The good example is the EU plan to publish common history book for all Europe, this was already discussed in this board. This is obvious that this is impossible to create such book because every nation has its own perspective of the same historical events.

I don't like that idea, hence in the first version of the book they didn't include
2nd world war.

«Trayus» wrote:

Don't you have to pay for attentind to private schools in general? I don't think many people could afford that.

I don't advocate this from now on. Obviously firstly the government should stop grabbing pockets of the taxpayers, unfortunately with our dear freaking idiots called politicians this seems to be impossible. All in all, they are grabbing 70% from our wages every each month! So, this is nothing strange that currently many could not afford including myself.

Quote :

So the only lessons where You could teach kid's ''the government's'' cause is religion or history, I could hardly put other lessons on the list.

Add also "WOS", lessons of economy, biology, geography but this is not a problem because they can always figure our something new. You just don't realize what could be done.

Quote :

I don't like that idea, hence in the first version of the book they didn't include 2nd world war.

Not exactly, they failed to mention that WWII started when Germany invaded Poland

Quote :

Add also "WOS", lessons of economy, biology, geography but this is not a problem because they can always figure our something new. You just don't realize what could be done.

I find it very unlikely, how a teacher teaching about for example anatomy of a frog could teach me new ideology ;|
It's for me to believe in any conspiracies anyway.

All I've been taught on WoS was what kinds of Taxes there are, how our parliament is built etc. etc., so as I said I find it extreemely unlikely.
I only see attempts to teach ideology of catholic religion, but that doesn't work out good really.

Quote :

Not exactly, they failed to mention that WWII started when Germany invaded Poland

Thanks, some say it started from the German invasion on Poland, some say it started from Japaneese invasion on China in 1937, personally I choose the 1st version, because Jappaneese-Chineese war was more a region war rather then a world war.

We can't even arrange same history program (officialy it is, but practicaly often not) in estonian and russian schools, whole EU Would be nice of course.

Maybe more Waldorf Schools? Sure they seem silly, but kids are teached to be creative and open minded there.

«Trayus» wrote:

I find it very unlikely, how a teacher teaching about for example anatomy of a frog could teach me new ideology ;|
It's for me to believe in any conspiracies anyway.

Abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, creationism and different kinds of theories of evolution. All these topics could be spinned in some way to fit some agenda.

Quote :

All I've been taught on WoS was what kinds of Taxes there are, how our parliament is built etc. etc., so as I said I find it extreemely unlikely.

For example they may praise socialism and its superiority over liberalism. They may try to praise bureaucracy.

Quote :

I only see attempts to teach ideology of catholic religion, but that doesn't work out good really.

I think that religion in schools is not good idea however these lessons are voluntary. You get what you want.

I heard few stories like pupils who had attended to private schools had later problems in public ones becouse level of teaching was higher

I suppuse in private school pupil is worth so much that managment of such school makes everything to keep him and try to teach him in easy way.

I think that private school is safer than public but i have no experience in it.

I would not put all private schools to the one kettle. The point is that parents would do some research and send kids to such school as they wish. Private schools would compete on the market and try to offer the best product, some would make attractive offer only to some particular group of parents with certain views. You pay and you get what you want for your child. Ministry of Education could be completely abolished with all its costly bureaucracy.

Well, as much as I know, the private schools often consist of people who just don't want to learn and so their parents pay a great amount of money so their lazy and arrogant children had a place to study.

Helena wrote:

Well, as much as I know, the private schools often consist of people who just don't want to learn and so their parents pay a great amount of money so their lazy and arrogant children had a place to study.

Some amount of such schools will always exist but I have no problem with this. People have jobs, pay taxes no reason to interfere. Students should understand that same fact that they finish some school is not important because your future employers cares only about what have you learned.

My second-cousins in Canada lead a system where the mother teaches the children at home and an attendant comes to house when they make the exams. They are ultra-Christian and most of my second-cousins have no real picture about the world.

They will learn about the world from the perspective chosen by their parents not government. This is the essence of freedom.

As much as I know in Estonia parents can give their children education until the 6th class but this chance is rarely used.

It would be hard also to have a common curriculum, as parents only teach what they want and can leave out things as right now there are national curriculums.

And I think that education given by different professionals (teachers, there are different ones but they all have at least some training) and curriculums composed by several professionals beats education given by regular people who might be stupid, crazy, ultra-religious, brainwashed by the state/corporations/new and old age cults and whatnot. With several teachers I'll at least see different views on the world and not just the one my parents give me.

Common curriculum is unnecessary. If I would decide to teach my child I would for sure not try to copy current school program. I do know what is really necessary and I would concentrate on this part. Most of teachers I have met were useless, either lazy or without talent, so I don't buy this argument with professionalism. The fact is that the most of parents who would decide to this option would not be stupid. Stupid people have low self-estimate and they don't like to take too much responsibility.

Quote :

With several teachers I'll at least see different views on the world and not just the one my parents give me.

So we are back at the beginning of this discussion. Teachers are supposed to teach you about facts on some subjects, not from giving you different views about the world! Beside of that you would not be isolated at home, this is not a horror!

No common curriculum means that you can't prove your education to anyone (employer for example).

And the teachers, in my opinion, SHOULD state their views on the world so we could see different views and form our own.

And from my personal experience, homeschooled children are weird and antisocial and probably live with their parents well into their 40s...

Hello everybody! Good to get back to the forum again

I think that role of a teacher in our life is very important. I agree that quite a lot of teachers in private and public schools might be bad and unprofessional, most of them are so-so… but! I have had some teachers that were really good professional and did affect my life and world view. They are great people and I am glad to have met them. We are still pretty close friends. It’s funny but some of them were not even my official teachers; they didn’t teach me at school or at college, but they shared their experience, soul and wisdom with me.
When I studied at college I met a man who had come to Russia from Ethiopia and had to stay here because of political situation in his country. He now teaches English language here. He didn’t teach me any English (I studied by myself mostly) but he taught me some really important lessons about this life.
A real Teacher is not just someone who gives you knowledge and professional skills but someone who does give views about the world and life and it is very important.

Gotta run but I’ll get back to it.

See ya!

Hypno wrote:

No common curriculum means that you can't prove your education to anyone (employer for example).

I think rather about primary education. Later you would need to obtain some specialization and naturally your parents would be unable to provide you necessary knowledge. Later it would depend what ambitions do you have. You might want to go to some specialist school or finish some curses. More ambitious would go to different kind of universities. In my ideal model everything would be private.

Quote :

And the teachers, in my opinion, SHOULD state their views on the world so we could see different views and form our own.

I think that we cannot agree because you all here look at this issue from the perspective of students. Wishful thinking, turn school in to some discussion club.

[quote="Rzeczpospolita"]

Hypno wrote:

Quote :

And the teachers, in my opinion, SHOULD state their views on the world so we could see different views and form our own.

I think that we cannot agree because you all here look at this issue from the perspective of students. Wishful thinking, turn school in to some discussion club.

Hmm... I don't get it... there must be private and public schools, so that people could choose what is best for their kids... why can't we agree here?

NowhereMan wrote:

Hmm... I don't get it... there must be private and public schools, so that people could choose what is best for their kids... why can't we agree here?

I think that we can agree on such solution if you accept one condition. People who would chose private schools would pay lower taxes. Optimal model is that public schools are financed from only one source, a school tax. Parents willing to send children to public school would pay this tax.

Because why people whom prefer private schools or home-schooling would need to pay for something that they don't want.