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NowhereMan wrote:

Unn wrote:

People, its time to stop belive in soviet lies. Soviet Union lost in IIWW was 8,86 million people. I said people, not russians. Make a different. Not everybody, who died in soviet side was ethnic russian.

well, yeah.... +/- 20/10/5 million soviet people's lives... what's the difference?... it's all soviet lies... What's next my friends??? Maybe you will tell me it was SU who started the war?

No... not directly. Though one could argue that without the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact there would've been no war. What Hitlear feared most was 2-front war. So instead Hitler allied with Stalin and they divided Europe between them. While poles were busy fighting germans, soviet army backstabbed them from the East and that was the end of Poland then. Germans and Soviets even held a grand joint-parade when their armies met in the middle of Poland.

In 1941 Germans attacked Soviet Union - just 2 weeks before the planned Soviet attack on Germany. That was one reason why Soviet armies suffered so many casualties at the beginning - they had concentrated a lot of supplies and vehicles near the front, but the armies were not in position and ready yet. It just shows - 2 totalitarian regimes cannot play friends for long, unless one dominates the other (as was the case with Germany and Italy, Italy being the small sidekick).

SU didn't attack first but yup, he was among the starters of the war.

Helena wrote:

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So it's completely wrong if someone calls us nazies or says that CCCP rule didn't do anything bad. It's also wrong if people say Estonians didn't suffer under My grandma was in Siberia and she still doesn't want to talk about it. Her mother and brother died in illnesses there. Father was taken to another camp where he was shot.

I usually have nothing against Russian people, I have Russian friends. At the beginning I also didn't want this monument to be taken away, but it caused too much trouble. And let's be honest, the centre of Tallinn is not a place for monuments of occupants.

I just wanted to thank you for this historical description. This is something what was not thaught in schools in finland (!!) when estonia was under soviet rule. It is interesting how "official truth" is different from the real one... even today, I havent read a single article about mass deportations in finnish... (there might be a lot of them) it is crazy. as if Finland does not want to "make russians angry" i dont know. some kinda self-censorship??

but I trust you of course. I hope that russians someday stop dreaming about "greatern russia again" and so on. these kind of fascist ideals are over. It is funny that many russians say that other europeans are nazis but they dont understand they are behaving like nazis itself (not everyone of course) --- they need a mirror!! They need to self-critize themselves. I also do not hate russians, but I feel sad when I hear these rasistic/fascistic comments of some russians in television etc.

I prophecy that some day russia gets divided to many "russlets", smaller countries made of russian people and/or minorities.
I think this would be an important step in spiritual development of our eastern friends culture and socities.
They actually need this -- possible wars for re-conquering other countries again and current federation-system is actually hindering progress of the people there. The russlets will help the socities of minorities and russians from different regions/cultures/identities develop faster, without byrochratic burdens, without centrally-governed non-free-press which is costly because of higher taxation and stealing of natural resources. The system without central government also saves money, adds wealth for russians in so many ways more than the previous system. In plain english: you cut out the middle-man, who just steals from you and does not create any value (isn't that what communists wanted to do originally, before they degenerated to fascist ideals?). What do not create new value is valueless and not worthy to have.

russians must stop thinking that red russian army is something good -- because it is one of the most evil things on the world. Same goes with ussr - it is stupid to dream about some kind of "new ussr". It is better to dream something what makes good, not bad. They should be ashamed and embarrassed of it's actions and history. How shameful history it is! How unintelligent was those mass deportations of the ussr! I do not understand how anyone (some russians) can be brave about those things, they should really (all) feel embarrassed of that!

And the change is coming: as you might know, there is some kind of organisation for russian soldiers (mothers of russian ? ) which know that russian army is not doing any good for russia? or what do you think about army who beats, rapes and kills its own soldiers..

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And the change is coming: as you might know, there is some kind of organisation for russian soldiers (mothers of russian ? ) which know that russian army is not doing any good for russia? or what do you think about army who beats, rapes and kills its own soldiers..

Union of the Commitees of Soldier's Mothers of Russia

http://www.ucsmr.ru/english/index.htm

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Oh? Then how was it back then?

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Ow, I thought Finland was democratic in this period, thanks for the information.

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telkola wrote:

I prophecy that some day russia gets divided to many "russlets", smaller countries made of russian people and/or minorities.

Zbigniew Brzezinski a Polish-American, former adviser of US president Jimmy Carter predicted such outcome long time ago and so far it appears that he was wrong.

I think that this is because such small enclaves of ethnic minorities in their own country would be fully dependent of Russia anyway. Even independent today countries of Central Asia are highly dependent from Russia and money sent from migrant workers is the most important income of their families. If Russia closed its borders, this would cause humanitarian catastrophe over there.

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How shameful history it is! How unintelligent was those mass deportations of the ussr!

Yesterday I started to read a book about Polish people deported to Kazakhstan during and after WWII. Horrible stories of children at that time...

Sounds intresting.

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Well democratic and democratic ... It's quite difficult to explain the period, since it was very complex situation affected by foreign and domestic politics, but i think this article could explain something about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

Again, thanks very much.

International Hate wrote:

«Trayus» wrote:

Ow, I thought Finland was democratic in this period, thanks for the information.

Well democratic and democratic ... It's quite difficult to explain the period, since it was very complex situation affected by foreign and domestic politics, but i think this article could explain something about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

interesting -- I was also talking about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism
and balkanization. Prometheism is like balkanization of russia, and the word seems to be from polish origin "Prometeizm"?

balkanization = different groups in country (or whatever) e.g. in russia, starts to compete each other and disintegration happens. But with russia, it's more like that every group starts to hate more and more moscow's harsh rule. Maybe this might create even new alliances between minorities and with different "regional russianic peoples"...

btw im pretty positive that russians living in vladivostok and near caspian sea have very different dialect and culture etc. I dont think that we can call these different russianic peoples the same anymore -- they are more like relatives like hungarians and finns are.

we should not call them all russians, but instead of it, russianic people of the siberia, russianic people of the yakutia etc.

Let's make a "Former Soviet Sphere" Union
Together with Poles and Finns (yeah, I mean now that too) it would be awesome

Excellent idea, all these three countries lost their eastern territories because of the Soviet Union, all of these three countries can demand return of these.
Together it's easier. We shall spread our influence all over Eastern Europe, muhahaha!!!11!oneone etc.

«Trayus» wrote:

Excellent idea, all these three countries lost their eastern territories because of the Soviet Union, all of these three countries can demand return of these.
Together it's easier. We shall spread our influence all over Eastern Europe, muhahaha!!!11!oneone etc.

sounds good

Aye. Although it may not sounds so nice for Romania, Ukraine and Belarus (if these won't join that is) and ofcourse, Russia.

The idea of unification of Eastern Europe reminds me of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzymorze

As I read some other article, Finland was also included.

Kiskun wrote:

Let's make a "Former Soviet Sphere" Union
Together with Poles and Finns (yeah, I mean now that too) it would be awesome

This union would be about what?

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Excellent idea, all these three countries lost their eastern territories because of the Soviet Union, all of these three countries can demand return of these.
Together it's easier. We shall spread our influence all over Eastern Europe, muhahaha!!!11!oneone etc. Twisted Evil

More economically backward land to subside, problems with minorities and renowned conflict with all our eastern neighbors, this is exactly what we need.

Military, economic, territorial (doubt it) Union, don't worry about minorities, the army shall deal with 'em, or send the back where they belong to, for example Ukrainians and Belorussian further towards East, probably to whats left of their states. They should hand over these lands all at the begining, there would be no conflict.

I see it mainly as an alliance to get back the eastern borders before 1939, and Hungary's borders before 1914 i guess.

(Don't take it seriously it's just a joke) x)

Yes, I've been thinking what would happen if Poland would take a counquest to retrieve back it's Riga Treaty territories, as a matter of fact, we wouldn't gain much except of regaining cities, old polish centre's of culture, some mines, etc. as our friend said, the minorities would probably fight for independence (not to mention these lands and most on 'em is damaged after battles, if there were any, and it would cost to rebuild them), we could actually move these minorities elsewhere, but it ain't easy, EU wouldn't probably like that, we'd be probably kicked out, same with NATO, and UN, we'd be possibly sanctioned economicly, Russia would possibly do it in case of gas, 'cause we're ''grabbing a slice of territorry wich actually is under their influence''.

«Trayus» wrote:

Aye. Although it may not sounds so nice for Romania, Ukraine and Belarus (if these won't join that is) and ofcourse, Russia.

The idea of unification of Eastern Europe reminds me of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzymorze

As I read some other article, Finland was also included.

Interesting link, thank you!

Maybe we need more co-operation inside the EU and it makes sense from the logistical point of view also (products from sea to sea dunno? ). e.g. finnish railway system is actually same what they use in ex-ussr states in eastern europe.. I dont know about Poland?

(im talking about tracks, the gauge (size) or something it is called... it is not compatible with german tracks etc. so that you have to change train if you go to Germany by train from here or from ex-ussr area)

hmmm... sea transportation is most cheapest way transport i think and railways are quite cheap too. One perversion what we have in Finland now is that most of the products come from the middle europe and that doesnt make much sense. Sometimes even (gene-manipulated) soya beans coming from USA via UK.. I'd rather buy slovakian, polish, hungarian or romanian products!

We need more infrastructure and wealth generation to the east europe (from south to the north). Worst case is that we end up some kinda puppets of the france/germany/Uk coz they do have a lot of power in EU (reminds me Orwell's pigs remember that tale? )

And co-opt inside EU is not enough of course. Maybe some kind of inter-border alliance is needed to facilitiate the progress and integration.
this important so that everyone can appreciate each other in the integrated europe.

Maybe this has been neglected? This was not needed during ussr era but now we might need to double our efforts.. At least Nokia is leading the way in Hungary and some other countries too..

There should be more language courses in schools which teaches polish, hungarian, romanian and other eastern european languages. Personally im quite interested about romanian, dont know why.

There is so much to do!!

telkola wrote:

«Trayus» wrote:

Aye. Although it may not sounds so nice for Romania, Ukraine and Belarus (if these won't join that is) and ofcourse, Russia.

The idea of unification of Eastern Europe reminds me of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzymorze

As I read some other article, Finland was also included.

Interesting link, thank you!

Maybe we need more co-operation inside the EU and it makes sense from the logistical point of view also (products from sea to sea dunno? ). e.g. finnish railway system is actually same what they use in ex-ussr states in eastern europe.. I dont know about Poland?

(im talking about tracks, the gauge (size) or something it is called... it is not compatible with german tracks etc. so that you have to change train if you go to Germany by train from here or from ex-ussr area)

hmmm... sea transportation is most cheapest way transport i think and railways are quite cheap too. One perversion what we have in Finland now is that most of the products come from the middle europe and that doesnt make much sense. Sometimes even (gene-manipulated) soya beans coming from USA via UK.. I'd rather buy slovakian, polish, hungarian or romanian products!

We need more infrastructure and wealth generation to the east europe (from south to the north). Worst case is that we end up some kinda puppets of the france/germany/Uk coz they do have a lot of power in EU (reminds me Orwell's pigs remember that tale? )

And co-opt inside EU is not enough of course. Maybe some kind of inter-border alliance is needed to facilitiate the progress and integration.
this important so that everyone can appreciate each other in the integrated europe.

Maybe this has been neglected? This was not needed during ussr era but now we might need to double our efforts.. At least Nokia is leading the way in Hungary and some other countries too..

There should be more language courses in schools which teaches polish, hungarian, romanian and other eastern european languages. Personally im quite interested about romanian, dont know why.

There is so much to do!!

You may be right. =o I like that idea.

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Maybe we need more co-operation inside the EU and it makes sense from the logistical point of view also (products from sea to sea dunno? ). e.g. finnish railway system is actually same what they use in ex-ussr states in eastern europe.. I dont know about Poland?

I believe it's kinda same here aswel, there are old still used german railways too.

«Trayus» wrote:

Military, economic, territorial (doubt it) Union, don't worry about minorities, the army shall deal with 'em, or send the back where they belong to, for example Ukrainians and Belorussian further towards East, probably to whats left of their states.
.

maybe this happens automatically. In the future the regions and local socities matter more than nation states, some people thinks.

if that's true, these regions just want to ally with Poland again. Not because they have to but because they want to?

We could offer Hungary help taking back a large slice of Romania, and the Zacarpathian ruthenia. Finland, it's Eastern territorries of Karelia, before the Northern War. If they will support us, the choice belongs to them obviously. ^_^

Russia should also give back the territories they took in ww2 and havent given back yet.

Estonski wrote:

Russia should also give back the territories they took in ww2 and havent given back yet.

I could'nt agree more. maybe someday we all realize together it is best thing to do.

telkola wrote:

Estonski wrote:

Russia should also give back the territories they took in ww2 and havent given back yet.

I could'nt agree more. maybe someday we all realize together it is best thing to do.

Doesn't Finns were deported from these lands? If so this would be just an big problem for your state. You would invest a lot of cash and people (no matter of what nationality) would travel to Finland proper anyway. This is what is going on in Eastern Germany.