People Are Same Everywhere

This international forum is for people from ex Soviet Union countries. Politics acts shouldn’t be cause of international hate. Aim is communication and dialog between people with different views. Be friendly and tolerant, speak English.
 
HomePortalGallerySearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsFAQLog in

Share | 
 

 Why Estonia relocated monument

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Admin
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 96
Localisation : Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-12

PostSubject: Why Estonia relocated monument   Sun May 13, 2007 12:30 pm

There are many reasons why bronze soldier and graves where relocated.

1. Statue also symbolizes occupation of Estonia. Estonia wasn’t liberated during WW2.
2. It is not acceptable that occupation symbol would be located in centre of town in front Estonian National Library and other important buildings.
3. There have been many demonstrations against monument.
4. Monument was often used as a political provocation tool.
5. It was located in trolley stop, hundreds of people walked on graves every day.

So, to different nations it means different things. Grave peace is now guaranteed. Monument has a new beautiful location in graveyard, old place is covered with flowers, in European Union flag colours.

Statue relocation had nothing to do with fascism.

Back to top Go down
View user profile http://people.forumotion.com
Julice
Guest
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Wed May 16, 2007 5:48 pm

Ok.. let's see what does occupation mean for Estonians? I have lived here since it was Soviet Republic and I can tell you what was happening here:

1. Education was in both languages, Estonian and Russian (schools and universities, the only thing was that Russian language lessons were obligatory for all students)
2. Everyone (and Estonians too!) had the right to recieve the USSR citizenship without any examinations, that means also equal rights.
3. Every big enterprise was obliged to have an Estonian as a director and a Russian as a deputy director
4. Estonians were in government (Ansip for example)
5. And about 44000 deported people, no one knows how many of them were exactly Estonians... and it was a case of sneakers...
6. As a very important transit country, Estonia was very well-groomed (buildings, railway, telecomunications, all built then)

So here we can see that truly they don't like that in that time they were somehow depending from Russia. Now Estonia is "free" or in other words depending from EU. Some time will pass and they will say that EU was an occupant maybe...
If the authority of the Soviet Union was so oppresive for Estonians, what can we now say about Russians that live in Estonia? People think that they are not oppresed?
1. Soon education in schools will be only in Estonian, studying in university in Russian is unpromising
2. Some people live here from their birth and still don't have a citizenship
3. Russian is a director of an enterprise only if he has made this enterprise himself
4. Very few people are Russians in government (according to that Russians make up 1/3 of Estonia's population.
5. Our cultural wealth is not respected not by people nor by government.

Too sad that people belive all that politicians say not veryfing verity of this information by themselves.
Back to top Go down
Voodoo

avatar

Number of posts : 108
Registration date : 2007-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Wed May 16, 2007 6:58 pm

CCCP was murthering inoocent, smart people, so others minds could be poisoned, to dominate world. People where brainwashed, there where no any kind of freedom, they tried to make estonians to communists. Government and other organisationes where a joke, they just fallowed Moskva orders.

Dude stop whining, if you live in another country, its for you own good that you speak that country language.
Your additude to your home country and language are main reasons why you dont have citizenships, why not so many gets to high places, why you dont dont have so many places in government.
Learn language, be part of society.
What you mean by cultural wealth? "Liberation" of Estonia? no, it will not be respected.
Tolstoi, Tchaikovsky? We dont have nothing against that kind of culture.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hypno
Intelligent member
avatar

Number of posts : 192
Age : 28
Localisation : Kuressaare, Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-15

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Wed May 16, 2007 8:47 pm

Could you be in the government whthout knowing Russian in the Soviet times? Nope. It's the same atm. You can't be in the government if you don't know Estonian.

1. That's the reason we have so much distance between ethnic estonians and russians atm- one speak one language, other other.
2. USSR citizenship. Hmm like that would have been a thing to want badly. You couldn't leave here anyway. And you had to request premission from the party to travel somewhere (rarely were you let outside the USSR).
3. Big enterprises were all under the Party's control anyway, doesn't matter who's the president.
5. No Estonians in government would have been too absurd, even for the USSR. And those people were under Party's control anyway. And about Ansip, glad that he has changed his world view. Even if he was a communist before and changed it only to remain in power, it's better than having Savisaar for example.
6. Yea well groomed. All those buildings are giving me chills every time I'm in one. And we were MILES behind other countries when leaving the USSR economy-wise, just like every other ex-USSR country.

And how are we depending on EU? We joined EU 2004, 13 years AFTER leaving USSR- who were we depending on during that time? Ourselves. Our economy's growth had never been this big before. And the desicion to join EU was made by VOTING and those who voted were the LEGAL CITIZENS of Estonia. So it's REALLY different from joining USSR.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Admin
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 96
Localisation : Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-12

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Wed May 16, 2007 11:30 pm

I like freedom of speech.
I like to travel.
I like to know the truth.
I like to know that government is subject to people.
I like that fruits of my work = work that I’ve done.
And most of all i like to be Estonian in a free Estonia.

_________________
study There’s no perfect system because there’s no perfect people but democracy is best way to go.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://people.forumotion.com
Krissukristel

avatar

Number of posts : 70
Registration date : 2007-05-16

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 11:59 am

Admin wrote:
I like freedom of speech.
I like to travel.
I like to know the truth.
I like to know that government is subject to people.
I like that fruits of my work = work that I’ve done.
And most of all i like to be Estonian in a free Estonia.
awww. that brought a tear to my eye. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Admin
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 96
Localisation : Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-12

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 1:04 pm

Razz

_________________
study There’s no perfect system because there’s no perfect people but democracy is best way to go.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://people.forumotion.com
PaulineW
Guest
avatar


PostSubject: [b]No Doubt![/b]   Thu May 17, 2007 1:30 pm

I'm agree with all of you! I see your point of view and have a similar one.
But don't understand why do most of Estonians support politics?

Too sad that people belive all that politicians say not veryfing verity of this information by themselves one said Julice...

I'm sorry that politicians look for selfish ends and don't care of peope. It is concerns of each politics, not only Estonian or Russian.
I can see that this step of monument relocation ment something other... Couldn't they foreknow what reaction follows? what will happen to society? The trollybus stop over coffins and new place on beautiful graveyard are just cover for a falshood. It's impossible to believe policians, is it?
Back to top Go down
Julice
Guest
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 2:55 pm

Unfortunately you haven't tasted what does the real occupation means, like some countries in Europe that were under occupation of Germany
I feel realy sad for such thoughts. This isn't a normal society taht is always thinking and being offended by their past.
Back to top Go down
Helena

avatar

Number of posts : 142
Age : 27
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn
Registration date : 2007-05-17

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 5:53 pm

PaulineW wrote:
I'm agree with all of you! I see your point of view and have a similar one.
But don't understand why do most of Estonians support politics?

Too sad that people belive all that politicians say not veryfing verity of this information by themselves one said Julice...

I'm sorry that politicians look for selfish ends and don't care of peope. It is concerns of each politics, not only Estonian or Russian.
I can see that this step of monument relocation ment something other... Couldn't they foreknow what reaction follows? what will happen to society? The trollybus stop over coffins and new place on beautiful graveyard are just cover for a falshood. It's impossible to believe policians, is it?

That's true that all the politicians probably do what's good for them. But they removed the monument after some people started breaking windows and all they had on their way. It had to be taken away because it would've caused even more trouble.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Voodoo

avatar

Number of posts : 108
Registration date : 2007-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 6:09 pm

PaulineW that riot was organized by Russia for proffit of Russia.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hypno
Intelligent member
avatar

Number of posts : 192
Age : 28
Localisation : Kuressaare, Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-15

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 6:29 pm

Julice wrote:
This isn't a normal society taht is always thinking and being offended by their past.
The ones who reminded us of the past were the ethnic russians, 'celebrating' there on every Soviet holiday and being really anti-estonian.


And PaulineW, I'm intending to become a politican, so please don't generalize politicans. And it's only natural for people to think for themselves also, but most do so while also considering other people.

PaulineW wrote:
I can see that this step of monument relocation ment something other... Couldn't they foreknow what reaction follows? what will happen to society? The trollybus stop over coffins and new place on beautiful graveyard are just cover for a falshood.
So tell us, what did it mean? The thing that followed surpassed my expectations- Russia and some ethnic russians here really freaked out and made a fool of themselves for most of us, estonians.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
DerDieDas



Number of posts : 78
Localisation : BRD
Registration date : 2007-05-14

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 7:16 pm

Quote :
But they removed the monument after some people started breaking windows and all they had on their way.

They wanted to blow out a fire with some petrol? A really clever idea. bom

2 Hypno ,

Is celebrating nowadays a crime? Where is the freedom of expression and the freedom of speech?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Earthland



Number of posts : 112
Registration date : 2007-05-17

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 8:19 pm

Quote :
Is celebrating nowadays a crime? Where is the freedom of expression and the freedom of speech?

Freedom of expressions? So it was very very right that Russians went stealing goos and breaking windows, just because one piece of bronze was moved 2 kilometres....

Liberty of speech? Then why there are so many people lying that there wasn't no occupation in Estonia?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Helena

avatar

Number of posts : 142
Age : 27
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn
Registration date : 2007-05-17

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 8:21 pm

DerDieDas:

By the way, things have really got much more peaceful after removing this monument and arresting the main vandals. Most of them were already punished for another crimes. Habitual criminals, not normal Russians.

And about celebrating: nobody would stop them if they could celebrate peacefully (and without red CCCP flags, please).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
DerDieDas



Number of posts : 78
Localisation : BRD
Registration date : 2007-05-14

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 8:46 pm

Quote :
So it was very very right that Russians went stealing goos and breaking windows, just because one piece of bronze was moved 2 kilometres....

Laughing Just read my comment again and the sentenze from "Hypno".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hypno
Intelligent member
avatar

Number of posts : 192
Age : 28
Localisation : Kuressaare, Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-15

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 17, 2007 10:14 pm

DerDieDas wrote:
2 Hypno ,

Is celebrating nowadays a crime? Where is the freedom of expression and the freedom of speech?
l2read... I wrote 'celebrating' not celebrating. There is a big difference.

What I meant was, that they went there, waved red flags, got drunk as hell, disturbed everyn living near there and some more stuff that the locals should be able to tell you (I live in another city).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
matrixx



Number of posts : 19
Age : 39
Localisation : Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-21

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Mon May 21, 2007 1:49 pm

Julice wrote:
Unfortunately you haven't tasted what does the real occupation means, like some countries in Europe that were under occupation of Germany

I would almost believe this, but... no. When it comes to terror and decimation of local life, nazis were schoolboys compared to communists and NKVD. Everyone knows of those so-called deathcamps of the nazis, few know about the much bigger GULAG Archipelago (There were years when more people were transported there than lives in Estonia today). Everyone knows about the suffering of the jews - few know about the nations communist regime wiped off the earth. There were 2 evil/criminal regimes in 20th century - nazism and communism. The smaller one was destroyed the bigger one continued its murderous existence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Kiskun

avatar

Number of posts : 319
Age : 31
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
Registration date : 2007-05-20

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Mon May 21, 2007 10:31 pm

matrixx wrote:
Julice wrote:
Unfortunately you haven't tasted what does the real occupation means, like some countries in Europe that were under occupation of Germany

I would almost believe this, but... no. When it comes to terror and decimation of local life, nazis were schoolboys compared to communists and NKVD. Everyone knows of those so-called deathcamps of the nazis, few know about the much bigger GULAG Archipelago (There were years when more people were transported there than lives in Estonia today). Everyone knows about the suffering of the jews - few know about the nations communist regime wiped off the earth. There were 2 evil/criminal regimes in 20th century - nazism and communism. The smaller one was destroyed the bigger one continued its murderous existence.

So it is! Sad Neat summerizing of the facts.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Risto

avatar

Number of posts : 61
Localisation : Estonia
Registration date : 2007-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Tue May 22, 2007 10:41 am

The communists destroyed their records compared to the nazis and therefore it's very hard to judge their sickening actions nowadays. Sad
Back to top Go down
View user profile
whatever



Number of posts : 33
Registration date : 2007-05-22

PostSubject: Why?   Tue May 22, 2007 9:02 pm

Monument of Bronze Soldier was relocated because:
in few last years, veterans started to bring their grandchildren there what was weird because it isn't nice to force your kids to celebrate something that you are part not them. And things started to get massive what interfiered city life (stopping traffic, life got violent around there whit all thous drunk men who often just started picking on Estonians who were walking by, etc...).

Someone mentioned freedom of expression, what did Russians when man whit Estonian flag came there. They started calling names (their favourite "faschism") and tried to tear the flag down, so the only flag there would be USSR flag.

This event got many Estonians angry (anger what had been there since 1940's) and started to demand relocation of the statue.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Kiskun

avatar

Number of posts : 319
Age : 31
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
Registration date : 2007-05-20

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 24, 2007 1:00 am

whatever wrote:
Monument of Bronze Soldier was relocated because:
in few last years, veterans started to bring their grandchildren there what was weird because it isn't nice to force your kids to celebrate something that you are part not them. And things started to get massive what interfiered city life (stopping traffic, life got violent around there whit all thous drunk men who often just started picking on Estonians who were walking by, etc...).

Someone mentioned freedom of expression, what did Russians when man whit Estonian flag came there. They started calling names (their favourite "faschism") and tried to tear the flag down, so the only flag there would be USSR flag.

This event got many Estonians angry (anger what had been there since 1940's) and started to demand relocation of the statue.

Oh, I never heard it. In that way it is even better you removed it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
terker



Number of posts : 14
Registration date : 2007-05-22

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 24, 2007 1:37 am

**


Last edited by on Sun May 27, 2007 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Kiskun

avatar

Number of posts : 319
Age : 31
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
Registration date : 2007-05-20

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Thu May 24, 2007 1:47 am

Yeah, Hungary also had the "luck" to tast it. No one says that it would have been better than Soviet occupation. Why do Westerners and Russians think that if we complain about the Soviet occupation then we want "faschism" here? Sad
Once a Swedish guy told me that he hates Hitler more than Stalin because he killed people in a racist way Shocked WHY DO YOU THINK STALIN DIDN'T???
C'mon! We didn't want anything else just normal democracy. I am shocked that even Westerners don't really recognize it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
logic90545



Number of posts : 9
Registration date : 2007-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   Tue May 29, 2007 2:38 pm

1. Statue also symbolizes occupation of Estonia. Estonia wasn’t liberated during WW2. - lie. lie.
2. It is not acceptable that occupation symbol would be located in centre of town in front Estonian National Library and other important buildings. see nr.1
3. There have been many demonstrations against monument. lie. see nr 4
4. Monument was often used as a political provocation tool. true
5. It was located in trolley stop, hundreds of people walked on graves every day. lie



1. That "term" occupation " cannot be used, as between the USSR and the Baltic states there was no condition of war and was not conducted at all military actions. Input of armies was carried out on a contractual basis. Otherwise, stay of parts of NATO in territory of Estonia today, can be named occupation also. But speech here about the soldier. The matter is that Tallinn released the Estonian case which is a part of red army. I NEVER shall believe that for these people who was at war in the ranks of red army (edited by logic90545)(and them was as much, how many was at war with parts SS " against communism ") the bronze soldier is a symbol of occupation. The MOST PART of ESTONIANS (53%) was AGAINST!!!

So. Were are we. In 1940 Estonia was politicaly annexed (not occupated!) by USSR. Whose was faulth - read memoirs of Mannerheim (independet Estonia faulth). There was no any more Estonia as the states. On this place now there was a Soviet union. When german troops has come (1941), they by means of military actions occupied (!) territory of the Soviet union on a place of former Estonia. Now 1944 year has come. The Red Army troops, by means of operations, have expelled Germans from territory of Estonia.

Whether there were they liberators of Estonia? YES, they were liberators of territory of Soviet Union (Estonian Soviet Sociality Republic) from German aggressors. But Estonians are right that they were not liberators of the independent state Estonia.

Whether there were they invaders (occupaters) of independent Estonia? NO. Because Estonians had not time to create the independent state. That state that Estonians tried to create, was not independent, it has not existed MINUTES without Germany. Germans and had not time to be evacuated. The Estonian case has grasped the German weapon, the soldier, officers, and also has released hundreds the Estonians prepared for sending as slaves to Germany. Soldiers of red army have shot from a machine gun at once two hanging flags: Estonian and fascist Germany. Exactly also, as it has been made by Germans with the Soviet flag.

4. If there was THOUGH ONE demonstration by quantity in HUNDREDS person I would agree with you. But there came the person from 1 up to 20 unusual Estonians, with strange intentions (to put a wreath of their barbed wire) and only when about a monument there were Russian (for example on May, 9th 2006).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D04ptK8HZas&mode=related&search=
You can name it demonstration, I prefer the term provocation.


The most interesting here that as soon as Russian have agreed to not begin any more fight near monumet, these "demonstrations" have stopped.

5. Tombs were away from a stop. It is the fact. The Question of principle here in the one who has placed a stop to a monument. It has appeared there rather recently (20 years ago mb).


Last edited by on Tue May 29, 2007 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Why Estonia relocated monument   

Back to top Go down
 
Why Estonia relocated monument
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» CANLOAN 2 South Straffordshire Battledress of Lieut Jim Erskine, OC 19 Platoon, D Company at Arnhem. WIA, POW
» Camp Mirage Memorial
» Monument to Sailors, Old Port of Montreal
» Only Monument in Canada Dedicated to a U.S. Civil War Veteran
» The Ukraine ?#?Holodomor? Genocide memorial has arrived in Washington DC. Unveiling November 7-8. (PHOTOS)

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
People Are Same Everywhere :: News :: Articles-
Jump to: