European Union.

This is communist practice from both Estonia and the EU. Firstly Estonian government should not be involved in to farming. Estonian farmers should be responsible for their own production, it should be their problem what to do if they produced too much. Of course EU limits are completely silly and anti-freedom.

When farmers overestimate thier chances, they usualy want gov help them.. If there were limits or pigs, there won't be ¶wiñska górka in PL.
How is it, that farmers in Germany or France don't compalin about limits or 'comunist practice' as you called limits, but they invest lot of money in their production?

Tell me what is "freedom"? The freedom from limits? Freedom from exploitation? Or maybe freedom to be rich and freedom to rule all those poor people, like in some countries (and ik UK during the industry revolution)?

Tell me also where were communism. As I know, there were socialism, not communism. Hippies and Christians were very close (some christians had common wives)!

Farmers demand help? This is nothing new, that is why governments should clearly state that such service wont be provided. Farmers need to create groups and negotiate with potential customers. At this point government of Estonia act like socialist one.

But the EU with its silly limits? Socialists always claim that they want to help, here the EU interfere much deeper. They tell you that you cannot produce as much as you want. They don’t care even if you have customers ready to buy your goods. This is not any help but pain for your company. Radical interventionism is very communist practice.

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Farmers demand help? This is nothing new, that is why governments should clearly state that such service wont be provided.

Yeah, it's better to have poverty and famine, than to help farmers...
When you will have a deisease or other unpredictable sittuation, you will ask for help just like farmers.

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Farmers need to create groups and negotiate with potential customers.

Do you know any farmer? They won't create any group or co-op because this sounds like socialism. Also they will argue for money (or devices) in the 1st occasion...

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They tell you that you cannot produce as much as you want.

You are lying. You can produce as much as you wan't. You have only buy quota limit from someone. And market of quotalimits do is free market.

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They don’t care even if you have customers ready to buy your goods.

You can always have customers. You only have to set the price at dumping prices.
BtW, Why US refused to buy our melexes, when they were much cheaper than the US ones? Because they said, that our prices were at dumping level! And they halted all import! Because of that their producents have not gone busted. Because of they we have unemployment, not they.

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Radical interventionism is very communist practice.

Always there were interventionism. You don't know what is comunism. You use slogans only.

Almost every country uses protectionism in economy, but rich countries are doing propaganda to cut down the limits in trade. And you believe in this propaganda.

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Yeah, it's better to have poverty and famine, than to help farmers...
When you will have a deisease or other unpredictable sittuation, you will ask for help just like farmers.

This is pure leftist demagogy, a famine Assurance, ever heard about?

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Do you know any farmer? Laughing They won't create any group or co-op because this sounds like socialism. Also they will argue for money (or devices) in the 1st occasion...

Yes, part of my family are farmers. If farmers cooperate then their negotiation position is much stronger, nothing socialist here. Waiting for government help year by year this is socialist…

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You are lying. You can produce as much as you wan't. You have only buy quota limit from someone. And market of quotalimits do is free market.

Buy quota-limits? Sorry, buying goods have sense but buying twist at of paper (nothing) is complete nonsense. Beside of that every pool of quota limit ends someday, so here we go again..

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You can always have customers. You only have to set the price at dumping prices.
BtW, Why US refused to buy our melexes, when they were much cheaper than the US ones? Because they said, that our prices were at dumping level! And they halted all import! Because of that their producents have not gone busted. Because of they we have unemployment, not they.

If the EU would abandon limits you could sell your goods in internal market (of the EU). I can assure you that this is not US is the one to blame for our unemployment.

No limits-> Companies who got better fundings grow really big, so big they can sell their goods a lot cheaper than the rest-> The smaller companies and farmers go out of buisness.

That's the way I see it.

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This is pure leftist demagogy, a famine

He who live in poverty, he don't say it is demagogy. You have money, so you can tell such things.

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Assurance, ever heard about?

Assurance is much more expensive then help from gov.

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Yes, part of my family are farmers. If farmers cooperate then their negotiation position is much stronger, nothing socialist here. Waiting for government help year by year this is socialist…

Indeed, working in a group gives profits, but so many polish farmers have complex of serf, that market based on farmers coops is impossible on larger scale.
Dont you know, that socialists tried to make famers co-op? Without success...

Waiting for help is not socialistic. Waiting only for help is mooching. However, can you tell that if someone don't have money to survive that he sould starve? Or he should eat rats, frogs cats and dogs? Like a guy near Cracow?
http://interwencja.interia.pl/news?inf=893765

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Buy quota-limits? Sorry, buying goods have sense but buying twist at of paper (nothing) is complete nonsense. Beside of that every pool of quota limit ends someday, so here we go again..

So tell me, when do the milk quota limits end?
Besides, in analogy, you can say that you can't have a business activity because you have to pay some amount of money to have a permission, also you have to pay some amount of money to pay taxes... If you have to rebuy your quota limits, than this is some kind of tax

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If the EU would abandon limits you could sell your goods in internal market (of the EU).

I don't know how is this with selling milk and sugar to the rest of EU, but other products you can easily sell.

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I can assure you that this is not US is the one to blame for our unemployment.

Yeah, but US is the one who we should blame for the crash of melex industry.
Our unemployment comes also from forcing armers to make co-ops: to make PGR's. People there usualy don't know how to work. :/

Tell me, do doctors should strike or highier salaries? Answer: yes or no. And explain why, please.

Farmers should be treated the same as the rest of society. Assurance is common thing in many countries and there is no reason that we cannot adopt this kind of behavior.

Also some farmers already works in groups because this is profitable for them not otherwise. This has little do to with artificial system of PGRs. Beside of that it was communism at that time, so how could you compare this with current reality? We can do either, nothing or move on.

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Waiting for help is not socialistic. Waiting only for help is mooching. However, can you tell that if someone don't have money to survive that he sould starve? Or he should eat rats, frogs cats and dogs? Like a guy near Cracow?
http://interwencja.interia.pl/news?inf=893765

I could provide a link about how homosexual raped a child and claim that this is dangerous tendency. This is the same kind of argument. Beside of that this guy live and raised in socialist reality so this is argument against current system.

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So tell me, when do the milk quota limits end?

I don’t know what do you not understand… Same word “limit” means that if you try to explore it, someday it will be over.

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Tell me, do doctors should strike or highier salaries? Answer: yes or no. And explain why, please.

They should strike but demand privatization not higher salaries.

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Farmers should be treated the same as the rest of society. Assurance is common thing in many countries and there is no reason that we cannot adopt this kind of behavior.

Yeah, but now it is impossible. Assurance firms are often thiefts :/ They don't want to pay compensations, untill the they lost in a court.

Tell me, what do you mean in words 'rest o society'? Management class or miners and medicans? We will have normal agiculture, but a lot of water in Wis³a has to flow...
In Germany or France there are mostly farmers who own huge area of ground. In Poland the average area is 7-8ha... At this scale of production we cant talk about assurance and other things..

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Beside of that it was communism at that time, so how could you compare this with current reality?

PGR were badly managed. At moment, in Germany, France or US you have also things like PGR's, but they are managed on a very good way. There are no overweight of staff, no thiefts etc. In Poland at PGR's, workers were bumming around, not working. This made a structural unemployment. Very large structural unemployment. And this is what I wanted to say.

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I could provide a link about how homosexual raped a child and claim that this is dangerous tendency. This is the same kind of argument. Beside of that this guy live and raised in socialist reality so this is argument against current system.

You are turning the cats tail forwards*... Lot o people don't have work, and not because of PRL. You have to notice, that in PRL almost everyone had work, especialy in cities. After 89 foundries, shipyards etc have been closed. People who worked there has been fired. Before 89 we were a potentate in various productions. After 89 this changed. Let me only bring the Gdañsk Shipyard up. Even Rydzyk was collecting money for Stocznia Gdañska, because capitalists wanted to close it.

* Odwracasz kota ogonem. The common saying in PL.

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I don’t know what do you not understand… Same word “limit” means that if you try to explore it, someday it will be over.

I don't understand what you are telling me now.
Mam na my¶li to, ¿e kwoty mleczne mog± byæ produktem na wolnym rynku tak samo jak mleko. I je¶li chcesz, mo¿esz dokupiæ sobie limit od kogo¶ na wolnym rynku. Dziêki temu bêdziesz móg³ produkowaæ wiêcej mleka. Wzro¶nie koszt jednorazowy, jednak¿e kwota mleczna wlicza siê do maj±tku trwa³ego przedsiêbiorstwa. O ile wiem, nie wygasa. Choæ tu, jeszcze siê upewniê u osób zajmuj±cych siê rozdzielaniem dop³at.

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They should strike but demand privatization not higher salaries.

Privatization can be a way to achive highier salaries, but not the goal itself.
Don't you think, that work is also a product on market, and the price of work - salary - can be low while the supply is keeping high? This works for construction industry, so why can't work or med's? It is only a simple law of demand and supply.

PdM wrote:

If your production of sugar (and milk!) is over the limit, you have to pay penality. This keeps prices of milk and sugar high.
Otherwise farmers would bankcrupt, because of to low prices of milk and sugar.

It was not actually about the production.
When we were about to join the EU, there were rumours that sugar would get about twice as expensive as it was before. Everybody started to buy sugar in big amounts, not only the farmers but also the pesioneers and other people. As Europe considers us to have it too much, we were given an opporturnity - to pour it all into the sea or to pay 700 million crowns (about 45 million euros) penalty.

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Yeah, but now it is impossible. Assurance firms are often thiefts :/ They don't want to pay compensations, untill the they lost in a court.

Privatization can be a way to achive highier salaries, but not the goal itself.

Your rightfully raised these issues. I’m aware that some single action in one sector is not enough. What we need is great reform. I hope that minister Ziobro who seems to be quite active will manage to solve the question of courts. About salaries, we need to reduce number of taxes and these which remain set at some quite low level. More money will stay for average people.

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Tell me, what do you mean in words 'rest o society'? Management class or miners and medicans? We will have normal agiculture, but a lot of water in Wis³a has to flow...

Everybody else. You see, Loara is bigger river than Wisla, more water flow per minute, while the French are completely paralyzed with this issue. Despite that their farmers are quite rich people.

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In Germany or France there are mostly farmers who own huge area of ground. In Poland the average area is 7-8ha... At this scale of production we cant talk about assurance and other things..

That is why our farmers should work together. Production in Poland is cheaper without any subsidies. We successfully compete with them now and without EU subsidies it would be the same.

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Lot o people don't have work, and not because of PRL. You have to notice, that in PRL almost everyone had work, especialy in cities. After 89 foundries, shipyards etc have been closed. People who worked there has been fired. Before 89 we were a potentate in various productions. After 89 this changed. Let me only bring the Gdañsk Shipyard up. Even Rydzyk was collecting money for Stocznia Gdañska, because capitalists wanted to close it.

Poland was ruled by crooks, they know how to destroy and how to steal, building and reforming were never their strong sides. Sure that many people were fired but as you mentioned over-employment was a common practice in communist era state owned companies. At that time those as you say capitalist were in fact post-communists, only they had enough money and important friends to start big business. Since 1989 many years passed, we need move on.

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Don't you think, that work is also a product on market, and the price of work - salary - can be low while the supply is keeping high? This works for construction industry, so why can't work or med's? It is only a simple law of demand and supply.

Work is a product in a market, I agree. Construction workers recently earn more than before cause they are needed and not many of them left in Polish job market. Medical staff should work on the same rules.


Generalnie odrzucam wiekszosc koncesji jako szkodliwa biurokracje. Z tymi kwotami to jak dla mnie nonsens, sztucznie powstaly wirtualny handel. Podobnie z emisja dwutlenku wegla... Jesli chcesz kupic kwote (realne nic) to inny podmiot na rynku dyktuje ci ceny. Caly system jest szkodliwy i zupelnie niepotrzebny.

Helena wrote:

PdM wrote:

If your production of sugar (and milk!) is over the limit, you have to pay penality. This keeps prices of milk and sugar high.
Otherwise farmers would bankcrupt, because of to low prices of milk and sugar.

It was not actually about the production.
When we were about to join the EU, there were rumours that sugar would get about twice as expensive as it was before. Everybody started to buy sugar in big amounts, not only the farmers but also the pesioneers and other people. As Europe considers us to have it too much, we were given an opporturnity - to pour it all into the sea or to pay 700 million crowns (about 45 million euros) penalty.

Common paranoia was unnecessary but still to punish you for this is ridiculous. Brussels bureaucrats cannot tell us how much of certain products we need at home. Product was sold and they still interfere, this is even worse than I expected.

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About salaries, we need to reduce number of taxes and these which remain set at some quite low level.

We have lower taxes than many countries in EU.. The tax system should be more simple, but the level of taxes is OK. Just try to compare the level of taxes in PL and other countries. If i'll find, i will put here a slide from seminary, i had.

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That is why our farmers should work together. Production in Poland is cheaper without any subsidies. We successfully compete with them now and without EU subsidies it would be the same.

Yes, I agree. We use much less mineral eee... nawozy. Because polish farner don't have money to buy 'em But the effect is the same.
You have to remember that with cash from EU many farmers bought stuff cheaper. They can get even 50% money back if they are doing diversification of activity.

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Generalnie odrzucam wiekszosc koncesji jako szkodliwa biurokracje. Z tymi kwotami to jak dla mnie nonsens, sztucznie powstaly wirtualny handel. Podobnie z emisja dwutlenku wegla... Jesli chcesz kupic kwote (realne nic) to inny podmiot na rynku dyktuje ci ceny. Caly system jest szkodliwy i zupelnie niepotrzebny.

Zbli¿amy siê do porozumienia. Fakt, limity nie s± idealnym rozwi±zaniem. W przypadku dwutlenku wêgla to tylko iluzja. W przypadku mleka to funkcjonuje jako si³owe zabezpieczenie przed mlekow± gók±. Kiedy¶ te limity zostan± zniesione, lecz na razie s± z³e koniecznym. Najwa¿niejsze, ¿e dzia³aj± i nie ma krachu.

If we are talking about sugar:
Soon after joining to EU the prices jumped to almost 5z³/kg. 4z³ was very cheap. Now 4z³ is high price, 3.20 is common.
But often, when prices of sugar are low I buy more than 200kg of sugar for a farmer who have bees ;-)

PdM wrote:

Quote :

About salaries, we need to reduce number of taxes and these which remain set at some quite low level.

We have lower taxes than many countries in EU.. The tax system should be more simple, but the level of taxes is OK. Just try to compare the level of taxes in PL and other countries. If i'll find, i will put here a slide from seminary, i had.

Most of the EU countries have very high taxes, so in comparison with them with look very well. Still I would find many other with lower taxes.

I asked about the quotas, and here is the system:

You can produce x kg of milk for sell. If you are producing more than x, you can't sell anything that's over x. If you want, you can buy quotas on free market. 10% of the quota you buy comes back to Agency, and than it is allocated to farmers, who have overproduction and pay penalities.

Quota will not expire.

The penality for milk overproduction is ~80% of milk price, so when you get 1.1z³ for 1kg of milk, you have to pay ~0.8z³ penality.

This makes quota look like a resource of production just like area o ground, animals or food.

I you write so, I believe you. However still I will support every initiative to abandon this artificial system. Anti-business, pro-bureaucrat and pro-speculator, this is how I would describe this system. Producer is forced to buy permission to produce something. It can be compared to bunch of thugs threat you to blow up your company if you refuse to pay them for protection.

I know what you mean but “free market of quotas” even sounds ridiculous. Either, quotas or free market, this is like “people’s democracy”. The name is quite similar but quality not

In same way, when you have a home page, you pay for transfer, you produce. It is silly, but this prevents of collapsing the servers.

You say, that this system is pro-speculator.. While trading the quotas 10% of the amout you buy falls to Agency (ARiMR), so it is highly anti-speculant. Also you have to be a farmer, i you want to buy quotas. Believe me, it is hard to be a farmer in Poland. If you want, i can tell you what is the procedure.

As I said, quotas are just another resource o production. You have to buy cows, grasslands, byre, and whole stuff to serve these cows. Quota is just a small thing compared to all of this. If you can buy 100ha to feed cows, you will have cash to buy quota.

You say, the quotas system is anti-business.. If we can call farming a busness :lol; It sounds funny or me.
If you wan't to make business, you will never produce cow milk. The reason is very simple. It is not worth to produce cow's milk.
Have you educated in economy or farm? If yes, you should know, that producing milk is expensive, gives high risk, and it is hard. It is easier to produce goat milk (you get 1.8z³ for 1kg of goat milk instead of ~1z³ for cow milk) But, of course, in our culture having goats is a evidence of beeing in poverty
Believe me, one less, one more diicultness does not make difference.

Maybe this is pro-bureaucrat, but never anti-business nor pro-speculant.

Heh, quota system is rather pro business because it motivates you to start a more profitable busness

PdM wrote:

In same way, when you have a home page, you pay for transfer, you produce. It is silly, but this prevents of collapsing the servers.

I see no analogy here. This whole system is an obstacle.

Farming might be business as well, one needs just to switch the way of thinking. Those who are willing to sell you its quotas are mostly speculants, this is easy money for them. There is no sense to discuss this issue over and over.

Not as easy money as you think. First they had to be in KRUS for 3 years, have worked for 3 years in a farm, or have a education in farming. I.E you have to get mgr at SGGW to buy quotas. And, as an addition, you pay for i.e 100kg, but you get only 90kg. It is not worth to speculate on quotas. Farmers, who sell quotas are downsizing their production. There'is no other way. Yout thesis has not any basis. I will discuss, because you are telling that white is black, and black is white. Do something, simply make a calculation of beeing a milk-quota speculant. Tell me when will you have profits of this activity. Dont hide behind slogans.

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Farmers, who sell quotas are downsizing their production.

If this is unprofitable for them then tell me why would anybody want to sell its quota. Continuing this logic, if farmers would refuse to sell their quotas then these quotas would be very hardly available in the market. and here we go again...

I’m hardly interested in farming itself, so this is waste of my time to discover all the secrets of this bureaucracy. Beside of that why you are talking all the time about milk? Farming is much more than this.

Because they don't need quota! When you have enything, that you don't need, but you need money, you sell those things! Don't make me learn you such things!

The quotas will be still available at Agency. Farmers will get them free after having penalities or overproduction.

If you are interested in farming, then you _have_ to know all of this "bureaucracy". Because you will not have a chance on market without subventions. You will not be a comeptition or ppl who have subsides.

Yes, farming is more than milk, but milk has quotas. So as sugar. And it looks like, you don't know, why there are quotas...

We will never come to agreement here. People who want to do something are forced to pay money to people who has no intention to do anything in this direction. If you don’t see this logic flawed, I cannot help you...

bobhatersfriend wrote:

Russia is special!

If someone dosn't want us somewere... well who cares? were special and unique =) and were awesome!!! we should make our own little thingy ^.^

Yep, you are right, nobody cares.
Yep, you should make our own little thingy. Like create more gulags ''

KOPER1 wrote:

bobhatersfriend wrote:

Russia is special!

If someone dosn't want us somewere... well who cares? were special and unique =) and were awesome!!! we should make our own little thingy ^.^

Yep, you are right, nobody cares.
Yep, you should make our own little thingy. Like create more gulags ''

Enjoying yourself, eh?

NowhereMan wrote:

KOPER1 wrote:

bobhatersfriend wrote:

Russia is special!

If someone dosn't want us somewere... well who cares? were special and unique =) and were awesome!!! we should make our own little thingy ^.^

Yep, you are right, nobody cares.
Yep, you should make our own little thingy. Like create more gulags ''

Enjoying yourself, eh?

Well, of course, what do you expect? I never had any anticipation to any other nation. But Russia, thats different for me. I had choices - leave my own country or live there under the Russian communist dictate for the rest of my live, raise my children there... Could I blame someone else? Or better - could anyone in the Czech Rep., Poland, Hungary, and others blame someone else then Russia?
I'm so glad to hear that children in schools back in Czechs are learning now what communism and CCCP was alike, and that there wasn't that much differences between fascist & commies.