Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.

smpt wrote:

NowhereMan wrote:

Quote :

I hope you get your independence as soon as possible..
or do you even want it??

Well.. Yes, but only a certain level of independence from Moscow and Perm... like thay have in Tatarstan maybe... hard to explain really... i wish Finland occupied us actually )

There's a saying here: ''Estonian border to the wall of China!'' Estonia is ''almost'' Finland, we just have shorter words and our history is a bit different - besides Swedes and Russians we were also ruled by Danes, Germans, Poles and Soviets.

I would like the Finno-Ugric nations in Russia to get independence, but it's probable they can't. First off, they're usually a minority on their own land. Many have been Russified (entire Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Finnics), many are on their way to become Russified. Next, there are natural resources on their lands, Moscow won't give those up. And finally, they have never had proper statehood as we have..

They should hurry up if they want their nation to exist. For example Karelians, look at their population rate, it's falling down rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia

«Trayus» wrote:

They should hurry up if they want their nation to exist. For example Karelians, look at their population rate, it's falling down rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia

I think that regional russians (which are partly relatives to minorities) will team up with the minorities, and these will create new country.

I mean, in many regions, so that there will be a lots of new countries.

Why? regions develops their own identity, they do not want to be slaves of the centralistic government (moscow/petersburg) and want to enjoy the natural resources themselves...

it is already happening -- Yukatia for example (or however you spell it. the diamon rich region in far east...)

telkola wrote:

«Trayus» wrote:

They should hurry up if they want their nation to exist. For example Karelians, look at their population rate, it's falling down rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia

I think that regional russians (which are partly relatives to minorities) will team up with the minorities, and these will create new country.

I mean, in many regions, so that there will be a lots of new countries.

Why? regions develops their own identity, they do not want to be slaves of the centralistic government (moscow/petersburg) and want to enjoy the natural resources themselves...

it is already happening -- Yukatia for example (or however you spell it. the diamon rich region in far east...)

I only hope that everything will happen so as you described.

If yes, it's possible we may have a similar cituation like in Chechnya.

«Trayus» wrote:

If yes, it's possible we may have a similar cituation like in Chechnya.

No. I'm a little bit drunk tonight so I'll tell everything later... God bless ya!

I'm sure You will.

Well.. Reading this forum makes me think I am horroring occupant Or just some estonian guys are occupation-paranoics. Sorry it they are not. I hope not.
There are nothing to collapse in Russia. Everithing was able to get independence - have got it 16 years ago. All other people just live in big country. All the ideas like "Wow! Those bastards russians take control over all the smaller nations in Russia and made slaves of them!!" - just a very funny stupidity for all russia population.

Yes, there were some different tribes hundreds of years ago. But now it is one country. And people there position themselves as citizens of that big country. That was just globalisation process (just like Europe countries move to global union). And of course there remain some differences between people in different regions. But take a look at Estonia: you can notice much difference between Notrt and South even here. Does it mean Estonia should collapse? I think not. Look at your naighbor: he differs from you, does it mean he should live in another country? I am sure not. 1000 countries of 140000 people is not better than 1 country of 140 mln.

Look at business sphere. Tallinn is the most progressive city in Estonia. Does it mean Estonia goverment uses East and South regions as slave for capital city? No, that was choise of businessmen. Russia have same troubles with regions, but if you could read russian news you would know how many resources goverment spends to develop far-east - Kamchatka for example. Becouse it would be good far all the country to develop all the regions, not only Moscow and Peterburg. And process is moving.

Tasuja wrote:

Yes, there were some different tribes hundreds of years ago. But now it is one country. And people there position themselves as citizens of that big country.

Why does that sound familiar? Ohyea. In the SU we were also all loyal citizens of the Great Soviet Republic

Tasuja wrote:

Look at your naighbor: he differs from you, does it mean he should live in another country?

If he doesn't like the life here then, by all means, YES! And if he is the majority of the region, and has been for a long time, by all means, if they want to be free, then I support that!

Tasuja wrote:

Look at business sphere. Tallinn is the most progressive city in Estonia. Does it mean Estonia goverment uses East and South regions as slave for capital city? No, that was choise of businessmen.

I think the difference between Tallinn and the rest of the country is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the difference between Moscow+ St. Petersburg and the rest of the country.

Tasuja wrote:

Well..

I’m going to disagree with you. It is incorrect to compare small countries with big ones. Tallinn might be the most developed city in Estonia and London might be the most developed city in England, but (!) take a look at the big countries like the USA or Canada. Which city is the most progressive? Washington? Or Ottawa maybe? There is no such strong centralization of power there; there are many cities that more or less equal. And what we’ve got here? Two big cities in the west that control the whole country! Every big corporation is registered and has its headquarter in Moscow and, by the way, pays taxes there, even if their main business located in Kamchatka or elsewhere. Of course it was businessmen choice and if you’re really Russian you perfectly know why I’m not going to exaggerate – things are not so horrible, but it would be better for us to have a right to decide what to do without asking Moscow’s generous permission or waiting for THEIR money because the money is OURS actually. And it’s strange to see how the same thing repeats on a lower level - every region’s capital does the same with the smaller cities it controls…
I am not talking about dividing the country. God forbid! But the thing is that every region in Russia must have a certain level of independence from others. And if they want to cooperate with others, it must be their own choice – not an order from Moscow. The good examples are the countries I mentioned so there’s nothing new and/or horrible about it.

About globalization. Yes, it’s an objective historical process. It happens everywhere. But who says it is a good thing and there’s nothing we can do? What would you say if you had to lose your language and your culture? How would you feel to be embarrassed to speak your native language?

P.S. You seem to be an intelligent person but I just don’t understand your sarcasm and undisguised cynicism. What’s that for?

Quote :

"Wow! Those bastards russians take control over all the smaller nations in Russia and made slaves of them!!" - just a very funny stupidity for all russia population..

Not slaves, well I don't think that they are slaves from what I know. Ever thought of that they perhaps didn't have the means to get independence?
Most of these nation's don't have the tradition of a beloved independent country wich as conquered ages ago, they were always under control of the 3rd's, they don't have such tradition like Ukraine, Belarus and other nations wich would give them any explanation to their actions.

How do we know if they like it or not anyway? I doubt if they like beign russianized.

Quote :

That was just globalisation process (just like Europe countries move to global union). And of course there remain some differences between people in different regions.

No offence (to Russians) I don't like any globalization ''Russian made''history teaches us that it wasn't the best. If I'll see any changes on better, who knows maybe I'd tolerate it.

Quote :

Look at business sphere. Tallinn is the most progressive city in Estonia. Does it mean Estonia goverment uses East and South regions as slave for capital city? No, that was choise of businessmen.

That's totally diffrent.

Quote :

Look at your naighbor: he differs from you, does it mean he should live in another country? I am sure not. 1000 countries of 140000 people is not better than 1 country of 140 mln.

What do You mean by that? Size doesn't matter always.

Depends, how are living standards in 'ere, and if it would just be worth of seperating from the federation. If the newly created coutry shall be fully democratic and willing to save it's own culture from erasing then I'd say yes to it, if it'll be better I see no point in staying. Look on the Baltic nations and yours, they're going pretty well since they've gained back independence.


PS: Yes, I like to use my dark sarcasm aswel.

Tasuja wrote:

Well.. Reading this forum makes me think I am horroring occupant Or just some estonian guys are occupation-paranoics.

When the Mongol-Tatars ruled over Russia, were they immigrants or occupants?

The old Russian minority here, who lives by the lake Peipsi came here when Estonia was under Swedish rule, to escape religious opression in Russia. They're now simple farmers, fisherers. I wouldn't call them occupants.

But some Russians who came during the Soviet era now riot in the streets, beat in windows and steal from alcohol stores, calling us fascists and yelling ''Rossija, Rossija''. Those kinds of people deserve the name occupant, because they are against an independent country, and want foreign (Russian? Soviet?) rule. I mean, if they feel their rights are restricted here, then they can move to the great Rodina, but life there is different from life here, isn't it.

There are plenty of Russians here who have learned the language, have gotten citizenship and are part of the society. We can't hold anything against them. But the inability to learn words like ''Tere!'' in 16 years is frankly immoral. We were forced to learn Russian once.

Quote :

There are nothing to collapse in Russia. Everithing was able to get independence - have got it 16 years ago.

Countries which formerly were sovereign did, but those that weren't, eg. Chechnya, didn't. Of course other republics in the Russian Federation did not declare independence, and how could the native people there do that when they are in minority. The CIS was established as a successor union for the Soviet Union. We chose EU and NATO instead. Now countries like Georgia and Ukraine want out from the CIS because Russia can use it to retain their influence in the region.

Quote :

All other people just live in big country. All the ideas like "Wow! Those bastards russians take control over all the smaller nations in Russia and made slaves of them!!" - just a very funny stupidity for all russia population.

The Soviet Union was a big one country, but at those times people talked about ''the friendship of nations''. Nowadays minorities are often even killed in Russia, especially those from Central Asia and the Caucasus region. Yet we get all the blaim for being ''fascists'', perhaps that's for turning a blind eye from solving their own problems?

Quote :

Yes, there were some different tribes hundreds of years ago. But now it is one country. And people there position themselves as citizens of that big country.

We were a different tribe also, around 16 years ago. What happened was Russification against our will. It can sure happen in the heart of Russia, when it could happen in occupied territories.

Quote :

But take a look at Estonia: you can notice much difference between Notrt and South even here. Does it mean Estonia should collapse?

Yes, but Estonia isn't quite centrally controlled by Tallinn. Every town and county has central government that can make descisions on it's own. But in Russia these local governments have to ask permission from Moscow for certain issues.

-

NowhereMan wrote:

Where's Tasuja? Crapped in the forum and slipped away...

maybe he was a troll from ultra-nationalistic russian origin

I am not a troll for sure Just work and kids take much time. These are my priorities now, not a useless disput "why russians are so bad". Sorry Moreover in case my point of view is considered as a "crap" here.

smpt wrote:

When the Mongol-Tatars ruled over Russia, were they immigrants or occupants?

I dont know, I am not that old Some historics say that was a occupation. Some historics say mongol mercenaries were only additional argument in local knight disputs.. Netherless, I have some friends from Tatarstan and do not call them "occupants".

smpt wrote:

But some Russians who came during the Soviet era now riot in the streets, beat in windows and steal from alcohol stores, calling us fascists and yelling ''Rossija, Rossija''. Those kinds of people deserve the name occupant, because they are against an independent country, and want foreign (Russian? Soviet?) rule.

Some estonians were judget recently for the riot participating. Are they occupants or against Estonia independence? No, they are usual hooligans, no more. Same for part of participants, they do not have something common with the riot target. They just used their chance.
But I am not sure I wouldnt break couple of windows after getting portion of gas from policeman.
Why all that story happened - question to police and goverment. They should predict and prevent that (and were able if they would want).
Why 15-years-old teenagers yell "Rossija" (not "NATO", "EU", "USA") - very naive question Why estonia teenagers see help in foreign country, not in the home country they live all their lives - thats a question to the goverment again. May be goverment is more busy dealing with EU money, have no time left for deals with own population?

smpt wrote:

Nowadays minorities are often even killed in Russia, especially those from Central Asia and the Caucasus region.

Yepp. And that is made by "trolls from ultra-nationalistic" groups (often supported by "democrats" like Limonov etc). They show these deeds over internet to show they are cool. And get prisoned.
But "friendship of nations" was not thrown away. Look russian tv-shows. There are a lot of armenians, osetins, georgians, ukranians, tatars, jews and even latvians. That means minorities have many possibilities in Russia anyway. How often do you see russians in estonia tv? Mostly in crime programs

NowhereMan wrote:

Two big cities in the west that control the whole country! Every big corporation is registered and has its headquarter in Moscow and, by the way, pays taxes there, even if their main business located in Kamchatka or elsewhere

Loot at Chukotka, for example. One of hardest regions, but one of the most succecessful. Why? Because of a good ruler of a region. He can earn money by himself and can earn money for his region Most region-people give their votes for bottle of vodka and got what they deserved to get. Rulers they choose got money and leave to Moscow That is the main reason. Now Russia goverment is trying to build a strong country. Strong country should have strong province. Like in USA, as you said. But thats a long story for big country anyway.

Ok, have to run now. Have couple glasses to break before stealing some Hugo Boss stuff.

My apologies for the "crap" words

Quote :

Loot at Chukotka, for example. One of hardest regions, but one of the most succecessful. Why? Because of a good ruler of a region. He can earn money by himself and can earn money for his region

I am not sure that Chukotka is such a successful region actually, but anyway, their gubernator was democratically elected unlike his colleagues now. And it is not his job to earn money for people - his job is to create appropriate conditions so that people could earn money themselves.

Quote :

Most region-people give their votes for bottle of vodka and got what they deserved to get. Rulers they choose got money and leave to Moscow That is the main reason. Now Russia goverment is trying to build a strong country. Strong country should have strong province. Like in USA, as you said. But thats a long story for big country anyway.

You have a low opinion of the "region-people" (What's that anyway? some "low" sort of people?). However, if they (we) wish to elect a scoundrel it is their (our) right and no one can take it.
Now, thanks to mr. Putin, we have the same people in government but we have no chance to control them, they can do whatever Putin allows them to do. Long story, you say? How can we develop anything without freedom? Or do you think we don't deserve it? There's an opinion that Russia isn't ready for democracy yet, it is usually said by so-called "patriots". The most Russophobic thing I've ever heard actually.

Now Russian government is leading the country back to Middle Ages. It may look like the country is getting stronger but it is only illusion. The atmosphere is very unhealthy here... I wouldn't say this just a few months ago but now... all those leaflets "ZA PUTINA", bills "Putin's plan -Russia's victory" What all that means? What "plan"? Nobody knows it!!! What victory, for f* sake? There's no war!

Quote :

Ok, have to run now. Have couple glasses to break before stealing some Hugo Boss stuff.

Good luck

Could you please tell me how many good region rulers were elected in RF since 91 year? Luzhkov, Abramovich,... Who else? Usual people dont know who they are electing. They know only what was said to them. That governor robbs own region and runs away. And who is responsible? Mr.President. Nether mind he has no ways to control that
And I can understand president wishes to have something to control key positions. That is dangerous for democracy but who knows what is better..
Try to imagine, your are school head, but teachers are elected by students. You can jump over head trying to improve your school rank but.. If students are not interested in hard studying - you will not get any result.
President knows much more about candidates. And now can control them, as he is responsible anyway. In 10 years, when population' sense of duty reach higher level.. I am sure elections will be returned back.

That's my IMHO. I am not expert in politic games though. I dont even want to disput about that. Everyone stays at his position anyway.

"ZA PUTINA".. That looks and sounds really funny. I fully agree with you. I think, that was just "copy-pasted" from USA elections. Show in style "Our President and Party are the best in the world" seems quite common.

Quote :

Could you please tell me how many good region rulers were elected in RF since 91 year? Luzhkov, Abramovich,... Who else? Usual people dont know who they are electing. They know only what was said to them. That governor robbs own region and runs away. And who is responsible? Mr.President. Nether mind he has no ways to control that
And I can understand president wishes to have something to control key positions. That is dangerous for democracy but who knows what is better..

Could you tell me how many good region rulers have been appointed lately? Many of them are the same as before, but now PEOPLE can't control them at all. And don't take Russian people for fools. President knows them better... hehe... You mean, he's got more incriminating information? Why can't he just share it with everybody? How can population's sense of duty get higher when population now is not responsible for anything? In such circumstances people will unlearn to be responsible for their lives, they will only be able to vote ZA PUTINA hoping that he"knows more". We have a lot of experience, remember? (Where is Rzeczpospolita when he is needed? )

Quote :

Try to imagine, your are school head, but teachers are elected by students. You can jump over head trying to improve your school rank but.. If students are not interested in hard studying - you will not get any result.

President isn't a school head - teachers are not governors - we are not lazy students! IMHO)

Quote :

That's my IMHO. I am not expert in politic games though. I dont even want to disput about that. Everyone stays at his position anyway.

"ZA PUTINA".. That looks and sounds really funny. I fully agree with you. I think, that was just "copy-pasted" from USA elections. Show in style "Our President and Party are the best in the world" seems quite common.

I don't know about the US, but the funniest thing is that Putin is supposed to leave in March. So what the hell this zaputina means? He is not leaving?

Some interesting links about finno-ugric peoples

http://www.suri.ee/inf/pekoi.html

http://www.suri.ee/

http://www.suri.ee/hist2/plen/sanukov.html

NowhereMan wrote:

Some interesting links about finno-ugric peoples

http://www.suri.ee/inf/pekoi.html

http://www.suri.ee/

http://www.suri.ee/hist2/plen/sanukov.html

By the way are you also one of these minorities, aren't you?

Kiskun wrote:

NowhereMan wrote:

Some interesting links about finno-ugric peoples

http://www.suri.ee/inf/pekoi.html

http://www.suri.ee/

http://www.suri.ee/hist2/plen/sanukov.html

By the way are you also one of these minorities, aren't you?

Yes, I am a komi-permian

After conversing in this forum I have become very interested in finno-ugric history and culture... planning to visit Finland this summer

NowhereMan wrote:

Kiskun wrote:

NowhereMan wrote:

Some interesting links about finno-ugric peoples

http://www.suri.ee/inf/pekoi.html

http://www.suri.ee/

http://www.suri.ee/hist2/plen/sanukov.html

By the way are you also one of these minorities, aren't you?

Yes, I am a komi-permian

After conversing in this forum I have become very interested in finno-ugric history and culture... planning to visit Finland this summer

Nice. I am already interested in this. I have just held a komi study-book in my hand. Do you still speak the language?

Kiskun wrote:

Nice. I am already interested in this. I have just held a komi study-book in my hand. Do you still speak the language?

People still speak this language, but it is mixed with a lot of russian influence. And young people tend to speak more russian. As for myself, I grew up in a russian speaking family and environment and my komi-permian is very poor Besides, it is not an official language so I don't use it everyday in different situations... too bad... for us.

Anyway, I am working on it, and I know lots of people who really care, and do everything to not let the culture dissapear.

NowhereMan wrote:

Kiskun wrote:

Nice. I am already interested in this. I have just held a komi study-book in my hand. Do you still speak the language?

People still speak this language, but it is mixed with a lot of russian influence. And young people tend to speak more russian. As for myself, I grew up in a russian speaking family and environment and my komi-permian is very poor Besides, it is not an official language so I don't use it everyday in different situations... too bad... for us.

Anyway, I am working on it, and I know lots of people who really care, and do everything to not let the culture dissapear.

I heard so that - since Hungarian and Komi are related languages - in Komi the infinitives of the verbs end with -ni just like in Hungarian.
For example:
Olvasni= to read
(Olvas= he/she is reading)
Does it work like that in Komi too?

Kiskun wrote:

I heard so that - since Hungarian and Komi are related languages - in Komi the infinitives of the verbs end with -ni just like in Hungarian.
For example:
Olvasni= to read
(Olvas= he/she is reading)
Does it work like that in Komi too?

Yes

Koterntni = to run
Viddini = to read

and so on:)

Wikipedia sais - Official languages Russian, Komi
Is it wrong information there or is Komi the official language only on paper?


Vasily Pavlovich Rochev and Vasily Vasilyevich Rochev are the most well known Komi people in Estonia. And when is say 'most well known' - then I mean the only. But are they ethnic Komis or just living there?